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Author Topic:   are "stand your ground" laws license to kill?
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 31 of 40 (720207)
02-20-2014 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by RAZD
02-20-2014 8:01 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
No, I don't think it was but it doesn't matter. As I said, the defense did not invoke the stand your ground defense, which is all I claimed and that much is factual. Zimmerman had his back on the ground with Trayvon banging his head on the sidewalk so a case could be made for self defense straight out. If it could be proved that Zimmerman had attacked, not just followed or possibly confronted Trayvon, then perhaps Zimmerman might have been convicted of at least manslaughter.
My personal feelings about this case is that it is a tragedy. If Zimmerman wasn't packing heat he might have stayed in his SUV and if Trayvon wasn't so young and full of testosterone he might not have confronted Zimmerman.
Just as an aside, early on the national media did a very poor job of presenting this case which skewed what actually happened. The local media did a much better job.
I just had one more comment about your earlier post where you said that the police had told Zimmerman to stand down. What actually occurred was that the police dispatcher had responded to Zimmerman's statement that he was going to follow Trayvon on foot and she responded that "OK, we don't need you to do that". This is not the police telling him to "stand down". I might be picking nits but this is the sort of glossing over of the facts that caused this event to snowball in the national coverage like that his was a white on black issue when Zimmerman self identifies as Hispanic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 02-20-2014 8:01 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by RAZD, posted 02-20-2014 10:29 PM kjsimons has not replied
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 02-21-2014 4:42 AM kjsimons has not replied
 Message 34 by Theodoric, posted 02-21-2014 1:52 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 32 of 40 (720209)
02-20-2014 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by kjsimons
02-20-2014 9:54 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
... Zimmerman had his back on the ground with Trayvon banging his head on the sidewalk so a case could be made for self defense straight out. ...
Sorry, the only evidence for that is Zimmerman, and from what I have seen it is rather questionable at best:
DNA Report does NOT support Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon Martin caused his injuries
Did Trayvon Martin attack George Zimmerman first?
George Zimmerman: Left hand, right holster
So I don't buy it. Curiously I think you should have more evidence than just your word if you kill someone.
... his was a white on black issue when Zimmerman self identifies as Hispanic.
White mother Hispanic father, with known bias against blacks. You don't have to be white to be a bigot.
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 33 of 40 (720224)
02-21-2014 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by kjsimons
02-20-2014 9:54 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
No, I don't think it was but it doesn't matter. As I said, the defense did not invoke the stand your ground defense, which is all I claimed and that much is factual.
It does indeed matter. Because it means that even if your comment was literally correct, you have not addressed the issue being raised. Unless you address that then the fact that the defense was not invoked is just an NRA sound bite.
When 'stand your ground' is invoked, then the judge holds a hearing and if the defendant is successful, there is no trial. No such hearing was held for either Zimmerman or Dunn.
However, aspects of 'stand your ground' were included in the jury instructions of each case, and I would argue that the result is quite problematic. In the hearing, Zimmerman and Dunn would at least have to put on evidence that the met the requirements of the law. But in an actual trial, Dunn did not have to do any such thing. The jury could instead consider whether the state had dis-proven the idea of self-defense.
In Dunn's case, no evidence that the teens had weapons was presented. There is no way that Dunn could have prevailed at a stand your ground hearing. On the other hand, Dunn says he thought he saw a shotgun barrel, and that turns out to be enough for three of the twelve jurors, particularly given the jury instructions based on 'stand your ground'.
Well just how skimpy a story will always be enough when scary black kids are involved?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by kjsimons, posted 02-20-2014 9:54 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:25 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 36 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-21-2014 2:32 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 34 of 40 (720310)
02-21-2014 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by kjsimons
02-20-2014 9:54 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
Zimmerman Juror Says Panel Considered Stand Your Ground In Deliberations: ‘He Had A Right To Defend Himself
And on the latest case it looks like some jurors wanted to let Dunn get away with murder.
Juror: Some On Panel Thought The Killing Of Unarmed Teen Jordan Davis Was ‘Justified’

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by kjsimons, posted 02-20-2014 9:54 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 35 of 40 (720316)
02-21-2014 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
02-21-2014 4:42 AM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
When 'stand your ground' is invoked, then the judge holds a hearing and if the defendant is successful, there is no trial. No such hearing was held for either Zimmerman or Dunn.
However, aspects of 'stand your ground' were included in the jury instructions of each case, and I would argue that the result is quite problematic. In the hearing, Zimmerman and Dunn would at least have to put on evidence that the met the requirements of the law. But in an actual trial, Dunn did not have to do any such thing. The jury could instead consider whether the state had dis-proven the idea of self-defense.
At a minimum then, there should be a ruling that no element of the "stand your ground" law can be used unless a hearing is held.
Does this need to go to the supreme court to get rid of it?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 02-21-2014 4:42 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 36 of 40 (720320)
02-21-2014 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
02-21-2014 4:42 AM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
NoNukes writes:
Well just how skimpy a story will always be enough when scary black kids are involved?
The Daily Show's Jessica Williams discusses Stand your Ground laws. The color is not great on this video, but it was the only full version on YouTube I could find.
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:44 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied
 Message 39 by hooah212002, posted 02-21-2014 6:18 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 37 of 40 (720326)
02-21-2014 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
02-21-2014 2:32 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
So why is it shown backwards (mirrored) and blue? weird.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-21-2014 2:32 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-21-2014 3:11 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(2)
Message 38 of 40 (720330)
02-21-2014 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by RAZD
02-21-2014 2:44 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
No idea, let me see if I can find a better version just on the Daily Show's website...
.....Here we go:
Oops, incorrect...try again...
This be the correct one:
The Daily Show: Unjustified with Jessica Williams
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:44 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 39 of 40 (720340)
02-21-2014 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
02-21-2014 2:32 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
whoops
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-21-2014 2:32 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 40 (720347)
02-21-2014 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by RAZD
02-21-2014 2:25 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
At a minimum then, there should be a ruling that no element of the "stand your ground" law can be used unless a hearing is held.
Since stand your ground is part of self defense, I don't see how you do that without repealing the law.
Does this need to go to the supreme court to get rid of it?
What would be the basis in federal or constitutional law? Would your complaint be too much deference to criminal defendants? After all, a trial is about the defendants guilt and not payback revenge. I don't see a slam dunk federal issue and the Supreme Court does not decide pure state law issues.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:25 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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