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Author | Topic: Is there a legitimate argument for design? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
dadman writes: however .. before we can continue ... we need to nail down this truth until all are onboard . . . I plan to leave no one behind Too late. Yeah, nobody's behind him. It's the old creationist-thinks-he's-the-big-answer-due-to-ignorance position that we've seen so many times before. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Atheos canadensis Member (Idle past 3018 days) Posts: 141 Joined: |
Well you called that one. I guess that's experience talking. Hopefully you and other experienced members will be able to head off any further sanctimonious pseudo-didactic coyness from dadman.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 878 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
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I just laid a book on the table ... it's 5 inches thick ... can someone name for me all the elements involved in all books in general .. here, let me start by claiming: paper (matter) / ink (matter) .. if you burn a book you might get some (energy) .. what else is involved ... maby glue (matter) ... what else (not related to matter or energy) ......... Man ... what ... is ... up ... with ... the ... ellipses ... ? and I thought I overused them So a book has matter, energy - potential (at rest), kinetic (if falling) and chemical (burning) - and information; all three elements required for life. Why is it not alive? Is there a fourth element that maybe you forgot to mention? Magic maybe? HBD Edited by herebedragons, : spelling errorWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 878 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
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Almost everywhere agrees that these are "Oxygen, Hydrogen and Carbon." What about nitrogen and phosphorus? They get no respect as "elements of life."
Which seems to maybe, kinda indicate that the 3 elements of life are mass, energy and "the Breath of God." I have thought about this kind of thing before. I mean why can we not just put all the components of a cell into a test tube, add a bit of ATP, a little heat and generate life? There IS something missing from that formula. Why is it that life only comes from other life? There is something that is being passed on - life. Not that dadmom has a clue; and I don't want to get into a "what is information" b.s. discussion. Oh, and he ruined ellipses for me, now I feel stupid using them HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So a book has matter, energy - potential (at rest), kinetic (if falling) and chemical (burning) - and information; all three elements required for life. Why is it not alive? Is there a fourth element that maybe you forgot to mention? Magic maybe? Again, this is demonstration that his description of "life" is invalid (unless you do consider books to be alive). So it's just non-science non-sense. We've seen a whole thread on the Definition of Life and it didn't include these "elements" ... because they are not terms that differentiate life from non-life:
quote:(note the second wiki link above works, but it takes you to the same place as the first wiki link and should be replaced by Life - Wikipedia) Now I have a simpler definition: life is something that is capable of evolution -- changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities -- and this approach raises interesting questions in defining when life occurs and what we view as life. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 878 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
life is something that is capable of evolution -- changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities Maybe change "breeding" to "reproducing" otherwise it would exclude non-sexual populations. But other than that I think that definition fits rather well.
and this approach raises interesting questions in defining when life occurs This definition could only apply on a population basis, since a organism could be born sterile and incapable of reproduction, and therefore, as an individual, not part of the breeding or reproducing population but still be considered alive.
and what we view as life. Yea, defining life is kind of like defining species; we intuitively know what it means but to create a one-size-fits-all definition is rather elusive. Do you consider viruses to be alive? HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Maybe change "breeding" to "reproducing" otherwise it would exclude non-sexual populations. But other than that I think that definition fits rather well. I think breeding still works for asexual organisms.
breeding noun1. the producing of offspring. This definition could only apply on a population basis, since a organism could be born sterile and incapable of reproduction, and therefore, as an individual, not part of the breeding or reproducing population but still be considered alive. Or of a non-reproductive age (too young, too old).
Do you consider viruses to be alive? I do, I believe they are the remnants of life in the RNA world, and thus represent a primitive form of life, where prokaryotes are more derived life, and eukaryotes are even more derived. They are the stepping stone between replicating molecules and cellular life. Edited by RAZD, : fixed first quoteby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I think breeding still works for asexual organisms. breeding noun1. the producing of offspring. The terminology is problematic for some types of organisms. When one bacteria becomes two, is either one an 'offspring'?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
yes
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
NoNukes writes: When one bacteria becomes two, is either one an 'offspring'? RAZD writes: yes Which one is the offspring? The one on the left?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3983 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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NoNukes writes: Which one is the offspring? The one on the left? In my experience, the one's on the right are always a little off. Anyway, you have to teach offspring: "When an amoeba loves itself very much...""If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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ah yes the old omnipresent amorphous amorous amoeba ...
NoNukes writes: Which one is the offspring? The one on the left? In my experience, the one's on the right are always a little off. hint: offspring are generically generally genetically different from their geriatric parents ... by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
herebedragons writes: What about nitrogen and phosphorus? They get no respect as "elements of life." If you're wondering... they actually were mentioned a lot in my web-searchings. But I just stuck to the main 3 here for simplicity.
I mean why can we not just put all the components of a cell into a test tube, add a bit of ATP, a little heat and generate life? I'm not very well versed in the biological sciences.My guess, however, would be to make the airplane-in-a-junk pile analogy: You can add all the parts for an airplane into a giant shaker, including a dude to put them together, a whack of energy and pages and pages of directional blueprints... no matter how much you stir it up, you're not going to get an airplane out of it.
There IS something missing from that formula. For sure. Maybe it's something we haven't discovered yet.But (and I think this is more likely), maybe it's just a part of the process that needs to be done in the correct way that we don't know enough about yet. If it helps... I can all but guarantee that the first cell was not created by jamming stuff into a test tube and shaking it around...
Why is it that life only comes from other life? I don't think this is true.Just 'cause we don't currently know exactly how it happens doesn't mean we can't ever know, or that it's impossible. In fact, we have much evidence to say that life does indeed come from non-life. 4 billion years ago the planet was devoid of life. 3 billion years ago the planet had some life. What happened in that billion years? Is it something that took a billion years? A few million? An instant?Again... I can guarantee that a test-tube was not involved There is something that is being passed on - life. I will certainly admit that this is the easier way to create life: get it from pre-existing life.But the evidence tells us that this is not the only way. Oh, and he ruined ellipses for me, now I feel stupid using them. Yeah, me too. But, it also made me realize that I use "quotes" around words too much... so I'm trying to cut down on that too. Edited by Stile, : Injected: Life.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
herebedragons writes: Yea, defining life is kind of like defining species; we intuitively know what it means but to create a one-size-fits-all definition is rather elusive. Yes, very much so. We also need to remember that definitions are human constructs. Just ideas we've imagined in order to make things simpler to understand for ourselves. (I'm not really sure where this post is going... I'm just rambling, feel free to ignore me). We make classifications so that we can organize things into simpler terms.But none of these definitions actually force what they represent to be anything more than they actually are. Did you know that cats just think their owners are big cats? We have this propensity in ourselves, too... to think that things are the way we are. To think that everyone thinks the way we think... and when people see things differently... they're just weird.Our intelligence allows us to understand differently... that sometimes people are just different and think in different ways. This doesn't make them weird... just different. Our classifications are ways to divide things, but in the end, we're all just energy and matter. Cats see us as big cats... and we may think that's strange because we're not the same species.But are they really all that wrong? We may not actually be cats... but we are animals, the same as cats. We're also both mammals. And we're both vertebrates. At certain levels, we are the same... just different representations. Sometimes if we get too "accustomed" to our classifications they can force us into believing the divisions are more than they actually are. I'm not saying "we are cats." I'm saying that if we focus on our differences (external appearance), we can begin to create a barrier from seeing our similarities. My point, getting back to life/non-life, is that maybe there's not such a huge distinction between life and non-life.Maybe it's just a big human construct and we want there to be a huge distinction because it makes us feel special. But, really, what makes you and I more special than a rock?I'm not trying to go down some human-lives-are-worthless road... I'm just trying to explore the actual reality behind everything. Seriously... is there anything.. anything objectively from reality (in a not-from-humans context) that says people are really more special than rocks? Maybe rocks are part of the process that is required in order to have "life"?For one... we wouldn't be here without our planet, and our planet is, indeed, made of rock. Meh... that's enough rambling for today.I wish I knew more biological sciencey stuff... then I wouldn't be left with thinking of philosophical mumbo-jumbo instead. If we do want real answers... the biological sciences are our best bet, I would think.
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Taq Member Posts: 10033 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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information is the correct answer . . . now, how do I plan to make the connection to all life ? Every single chemical and physical state has information. Finding information is not a way to distinguish life from non-life.
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