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Author Topic:   Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is nothing.
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 6 of 47 (720594)
02-25-2014 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
02-25-2014 2:09 AM


Solid Walls
Eliyahu writes:
Only God exists.
Besides Him there is nothing.
You may be right, but I don't believe you. You don't provide any reason to think that this is true.
There is, however, a reason to believe that God does not exist -> the fact that nothing seems to require God.
To them I say: There is NOTHING except for God.
Repeating yourself with capitalization doesn't add any value to your words.
And what about the whole physical world? The real solid tangible material world?
Well, that's just an illusion.
Yes, very much so. How does this point to God?
In one shot we are rid of 99.9999999999999% of the material world.
However, we are still stuck with the remaining 0.0000000000001%.
True (...enough, anyway).
But, again, how does this point to God?
Even you just said (twice, even... sometimes with CAPTIALS) that there is nothing except for God.
But now you're saying the world is mostly nothing... and not showing any God. You're arguing against yourself.
So, what is it? Is there mostly nothing in this universe, or is there mostly God? What you've said here, is that there's mostly nothing.
But, apart from your own confusion... all this means is that our original concept of the physical world was incorrect.
Things are not solid, they simply feel solid because of the fields they produce... not because they are continuous.
But just because fields exist doesn't mean God exists. It means fields exist.
How does any of this point to God?
People much smarter and much better educated than me, concluded from this that the universe is a mental entity, and not a physical entity.
You have a false dichotomy here.
I agree that the world is not physical in the sense that objects are solid, impermeable matter.
But that knowledge doesn't create a mental entity in any way.
It creates a way that physical objects exist to us such that they feel solid even though they are not. This is explained by all the interacting fields (gravity, electric, energy...).
In 2005 an article appeared in one of the most respected, if not THE most respected, peer reviewed scientific journal, "Nature", which speaks about the mental universe.
That can be read here, if you give them your credit card number...
Or, viewed in it's entirety for free here: The mental Universe by Richard Conn Henry
A common way to evade the mental Universe is to invoke ‘decoherence’ the notion that ‘the physical environment’ is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind.
That's not what decoherence is.
Decoherence is this: the mechanism by which the classical limit emerges from a quantum starting point and it determines the location of the quantum-classical boundary
All that means is, basically: "when things get big enough that we no longer require the specific equations of quantum mechanics to describe the physical motions... the equations of Newtonian mechanics work just fine."
Or, again: "when things are large enough that they act in the way we're used to experience things acting in our everyday lives."
The term has nothing to do with the human mind. I promise. Someone's trying to make a fool of you, and you're letting them.
The strange part is that these facts are known for almost a hundred years, and almost nobody knows about it.
I know about it.
It's taught rather normally in university physics courses. Maybe electricity and magnetism courses? Maybe quantum mechanics courses... I can't remember. It's not a secret, though.
So the mental universe is a fact, a non-controversial generally accepted fact.
No, I don't think you understand.
Quantum mechanics are a fact, yes. But jumping to a "mental universe" just because things are not solid as you previously thought... with no other reason to use the term "mental" in any way... with no evidence to suggest any sort of consciousness within the universe apart from known humans and animals... that's silly. And that's what's "not talked about."
But it's not laughed away because it's not desired.
It's ridiculed because there's no evidence pointing towards that conclusion in any way.
Find some evidence, and people will listen. Just like they listened to Galileo... because he showed them the evidence.
Please be advised that nevertheless it is not a good idea to start banging your head against the wall, thinking: "That wall doesn't exist anyway", because we are subjected to the laws that God has set for our matrix, and head-against-the-wall-banging will result in a nasty headache.
Again, no.
The wall doesn't feel solid because of God.
The wall feels solid because of the fields it creates as described by quantum mechanics.
We have a wall that feels solid.
No God is necessary.
We used to think the wall felt solid because of solid physics.
The wall still feels solid.
No God is necessary.
We now think the wall feels solid because of the interactions of the fields created by all the components of matter as described by quantum physics.
The wall still feels solid.
No God is necessary.
Maybe one day we'll find some evidence pointing towards God.
Maybe not.
Maybe one day we'll find some evidence pointing towards another God-not-required explanation that replaces quantum physics.
Maybe not.
Either way... currently, there is no evidence pointing towards a "mental universe" in the context that God is required for it's existence.
And the wall still feels solid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 2:09 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-25-2014 10:36 AM Stile has replied
 Message 19 by Eliyahu, posted 02-26-2014 7:22 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 8 of 47 (720608)
02-25-2014 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
02-25-2014 10:36 AM


Re: Solid Walls
Phat writes:
Imagine now that you were a Creator like God and, hypothetically, you created(either directly or indirectly) humanity. It is true that at the present time they do not need you. It may well be, however, that they may find a point in the future where they do need you.
Sure. Quite possible. What about probable, though?
Also quite possible -> The universe is created from the egg of a turtle. Probable? So far... not so much.
We can think of all sorts of ideas that do not contradict what we see. That makes them possible. What makes them probable?
Currently, the best technique we have for determining if any particular idea is probable or not is to find evidence that points towards that idea.
So far, there's no evidence for a Creator God.
So far, there's no evidence for a turtle egg universe.
So far... there's lots and lots of evidence that God is not required.
So far... there's lots and lots of evidence that turtle eggs are not required.
So far... there's lots and lots of evidence that God does not exist.
So far... there's lots and lots of evidence that turtle egg universes do not exist.
It's the same evidence. The more we discover, the more we learn:
...we discover and learn non-God techniques for why things are the way they are.
...we discover and learn non-turtle-egg techniques for why things are the way they are.
If we want to follow the evidence... then the evidence currently says that God does not exist.
If we want to follow the evidence... then the evidence currently says that turtle egg universes do not exist.
Is it possible to discover God in the future? Of course it is. But how likely? As likely as it is to discover turtle-egg universes, it seems.
Sounds a bit like atoms to me. They are invisible. Just a thought....carry on
Sure does.
Who wrote the Bible? Right... people. No God required, again. We already know that people are capable of talking about things that sound a bit like invisible atoms... it happens every day. Remember... thinking of ideas that do not contradict what we see are meaningless. In order to support an idea as probable you need to give a unique reason why it should be considered. Otherwise, the possibility remains as unlikely as turtle eggs creating universes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-25-2014 10:36 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Eliyahu, posted 02-27-2014 12:32 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 26 of 47 (720695)
02-26-2014 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by vimesey
02-26-2014 10:22 AM


Re: Solid Walls
vimesey writes:
Isn't the mistake he's making, trying to extrapolate quantum behaviour into the day to day, classical, macro world ?
He's making too many mistakes to count
Here's two of the major ones:
  1. He's correct about "observations" being required for decoherence.
    But he doesn't understand that "observation" here is a very specific term. It's the scientific meaning of the term under the context of quantum mechanics.
    He thinks that "observation" means people looking at it or perceiving it in some manner.
    The "observation" here actually means something more along the lines of "interacting with any other particles."
    That is... the wall doesn't stay up because humans observe it.
    But... the wall stays up because the wall observes itself.
    You can think of it as the examples you guys have already provided... the wall exists when you lean on it... when you lean a chair against it... or if a piece of paper blows up against it without any human interaction at all.
    The wall actually "observes itself" because it has so many "wall-particles" interacting with each other that it's in "constant interaction" and therefore... the wave-function (for the entire wall itself) has no chance to ever collapse into nothingness.
    If there were just a few particles... it doesn't take much for their (much smaller) wave-function to collapse into nothingness... so it happens much more often.
    But if you "observe" those few particles (eg -> hit them with photons so you can "see" them...) then you're adding particles... when you add particles, you add interactions... when you add interactions... you prevent the wave-function from collapsing.
    I'm not a quantum physicist by any means. So I probably have some of the terms or processes incorrect. But that's the basic gist of it, anyway.
  2. He's wrong about "a mental universe" meaning consciousness is required in any way.
    The term "mental universe" is not used to mean something like "the world only exists because you're thinking about it!!!"
    It's more used to describe the fact that our mind's idea is a construction of what we think the universe is like.
    An example will show this better (hopefully..):
    You see a pen.
    You may think there's an actual thing there that really looks like a pen. (The "real" universe).
    But... there's not. (Or, at least, we don't know that there is..)
    When you see the pen, it's not direct in anyway.
    Photons reflect off of whatever-the-pen-actually-is.
    Those photons enter your eye.
    Your eye captures those photons in a certain way.
    Your brain interprets those "certain ways" into an image in your head.
    This is the "mental universe."
    You don't actually see whatever-the-pen-actually-is.
    What you actually see is your-brain's-interpretation-of-photons-entering-your-eye-that-reflected-off-whatever-the-pen-actually-is.
    So... it's quite possible that "whatever-the-pen-actually-is" is not very pen-like at all. But, because of all the photons flying around and brain interpretations and such... we "see" the pen the way we see it, all the time.
    Quantum mechanics has allowed us to know that "whatever-the-pen-actually-is" is quite different from what we actually see and feel.
    We see and feel a solid object.
    But the "whatever-the-pen-actually-is" is not solid at all. It's (as Eliyahu said) 0.000000001% solid... mostly empty space. The particles that actually do make up whatever-the-pen-actually-is interact with each other and create fields as described by quantum mechanics. These fields reflect the photons that get interpreted by our brains. Those fields also prevent the fields-of-our-own-hands from passing through each other... thus giving us the sensation of a solid pen.
Therefore... "the pen we see in our brains" is "the mental universe" (because that really only exists in our mind's interpretation of reality).
And "whatever-the-pen-actually-is" is the real universe... mostly nothing physical... but lots of "fields." Calling reality "mostly nothing" when it's really only "mostly nothing physical" is another mistake.
Reality is not "mostly nothing."
Reality is "mostly nothing physical."
Reality is "mostly fields resulting from the interactions of whatever particles actually exist."
And, again, all it takes is a small correction to the definition of "physical" from "actual, real, solid objects" to "what we perceive as solid objects from the actual, real fields." And you can use the world "physical" just as you always did before.
That's why the wall is still solid.
The wall is whatever-the-wall-is... that doesn't change just because our-understanding-of-whatever-the-wall-is has changed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by vimesey, posted 02-26-2014 10:22 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 27 of 47 (720697)
02-26-2014 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Eliyahu
02-26-2014 7:22 AM


Captial punishment
Eliyahu writes:
To them I say: There is NOTHING except for God.
Stile writes:
Repeating yourself with capitalization doesn't add any value to your words.
Says who?
Says me.
And, unfortunately, if you can't figure this one out... there's really no point in trying to discuss anything with you at all.
I will try with an example:
You say: All ducks can fly!
I say: No, a duck with broken wings cannot fly.
You say: ALL ducks can fly!
...but, as I said, repeating yourself with capitalization doesn't add any value to your words.
Once you're able to grasp this idea, you'll see how important it is to support the things you say instead of simply repeating yourself in another font.
Let me know what you think and I'll see if you're ready to play with the big boys.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Eliyahu, posted 02-26-2014 7:22 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 33 of 47 (720745)
02-27-2014 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Eliyahu
02-27-2014 12:32 AM


Re: Solid Walls
Can you give me some of that lots and lots of evidence?
Not here, no, it would be off topic.
But I can do it here:
Message 310
I Know That God Does Not Exist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Eliyahu, posted 02-27-2014 12:32 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Eliyahu, posted 02-28-2014 4:10 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 47 of 47 (721091)
03-03-2014 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Eliyahu
02-28-2014 4:10 AM


Re: Solid Walls
Eliyahu writes:
That thread is closed
Not anymore, feel free to add any comments there.
I only see there what you think, and I'm not interested in that.
Everything I post here is what I think. And I'm the most interesting man in the forum. I think you should try reading it again.
What I want is some solid proof that God does not exist.
And I want some solid proof that God does exist. Neither is forthcoming.
However, we do have one thing... lots and lots of evidence. So, we can go over the evidence we do have and see where it leads us.
Following the evidence is a personal choice, no one expects you do so.
It is, however, the best method humans have ever devised for modelling reality. If you're interested in the truth, but refuse to follow the evidence... then your true intentions will be revealed.
Please open a new thread about that subject and present me with the proofs.
Here you go: Message 310 from I Know That God Does Not Exist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Eliyahu, posted 02-28-2014 4:10 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
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