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Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 16 of 397 (720720)
02-27-2014 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
02-27-2014 3:31 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
isn't this tyranny?
Nah - tyranny is when some government guys crash into your house in the middle of the night, take your husband and son kicking and screaming from your home, lock them up without explanation, pull out their finger nails with pliers, bash their genitals to a pulp with baseball bats, push hot needles into their eyes, and when they finally get bored, drown them in a small bowl of water, struggling out their agonising final seconds. That's tyranny.
You're confusing tyranny with the compromises that everyone makes in an enlightened society, to try to ensure that people don't suffer more as a result of the exercise of a right, than the right justifies.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 3:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(2)
Message 17 of 397 (720721)
02-27-2014 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
02-27-2014 3:31 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
Do I have this wrong or didn't this proposed law come about to protect Christian business owners such as bakers who refused on moral grounds to make a wedding cake for homosexuals or photographers who refused on moral grounds to photograph a gay wedding ceremony? And if this is its basis, apparently you are all in favor of forcing these business people to act against their conscience? Really? isn't this tyranny? Whatever happened to freedom?
Please substitute the word "gay" with "a black person" or "a jew" and think again.
This is not about religious freedom but about discrimination. The hateful bigots just want to have their backs covered when/if they want to act like loathable scum of the earth.
Can you even imagine where this slippery slope would end up? A police officer not answering a burglary call because the homeowners are a lesbian couple. Airport security official denying entrance to a gay couple thus making them miss their flight or at the extremes denying entrance of a hetero couple travelling to their daughters gay wedding...
There is nothing, absolutely nothing good or admirable in these law proposals - they are just evil and void of anything even remotely good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 3:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:35 AM saab93f has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 397 (720722)
02-27-2014 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by saab93f
02-27-2014 4:49 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
That's the bogus comparison you all try to make. Sin is not the same thing as race, and people ought to know better than to make such a comparison.
Not answering a burglary call because the people are gay is also a ridiculous comparison. They don't stop being citizens because they are gay. But being forced to make a wedding cake or take photographs which would be specifically a validation of the gay lifestyle when you consider gay marriage to be a violation of a basic principle given by God, is what I mean by tyranny.
The only thing I might want to hold the Christians to is that if they are going to stand on conscience against homosexuality they should also stand on conscience against other sins such as adultery, unmarried couples living together and all that. However there may not be a comparison here either, if it doesn't involve actually being required to validate the adultery etc.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by saab93f, posted 02-27-2014 4:49 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by saab93f, posted 02-27-2014 5:41 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 20 by vimesey, posted 02-27-2014 6:02 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 24 by Diomedes, posted 02-27-2014 9:24 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 25 by Theodoric, posted 02-27-2014 9:32 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 26 by Coragyps, posted 02-27-2014 9:41 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-27-2014 1:26 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 33 by Taq, posted 02-27-2014 1:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 19 of 397 (720723)
02-27-2014 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:35 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
That's the bogus comparison you all try to make. Sin is not the same thing as race, and people ought to know better than to make such a comparison.
The only thing I might want to hold the Christians to is that if they are going to stand on conscience against homosexuality they should also stand on conscience against other sins such as adultery, unmarried couples living together and all that.
Silly, there is no such thing as a sin. They are all made-up concepts to control the masses. Christians are just picking bits they see fit to bolster their agenda and discard those that come too close for comfort.
Gays are born that way - can you even begin to comprehend why anyone would choose something that might subject them to ridicule, hate and emotional and bodily harm, even death?
About being a citizen nevertheless, in Kansas the wording of the proposal was such that:
"But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. In addition to barring all anti-discrimination lawsuits against private employers, the new law permits government employees to deny service to gays in the name of religious liberty. This is nothing new, but the sweep of Kansas’ statute is breathtaking. Any government employee is given explicit permission to discriminate against gay couplesnot just county clerks and DMV employees, but literally anyone who works for the state of Kansas. If a gay couple calls the police, an officer may refuse to help them if interacting with a gay couple violates his religious principles. State hospitals can turn away gay couples at the door and deny them treatment with impunity. Gay couples can be banned from public parks, public pools, anything that operates under the aegis of the Kansas state government."
Kansas anti-gay segregation bill is an abomination.
Edited by saab93f, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:35 AM Faith has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(6)
Message 20 of 397 (720725)
02-27-2014 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:35 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
The only thing I might want to hold the Christians to is that if they are going to stand on conscience against homosexuality they should also stand on conscience against other sins such as adultery, unmarried couples living together and all that. However there may not be a comparison here either, if it doesn't involve actually being required to validate the adultery etc.
So should Christians in a restaurant refuse to serve fat people, because that would validate gluttony ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:35 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2014 7:14 AM vimesey has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 21 of 397 (720727)
02-27-2014 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by vimesey
02-27-2014 6:02 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
So should Christians in a restaurant refuse to serve fat people, because that would validate gluttony ?
So where am I supposed to eat?
What would be neat, of course, would be for jewish run businesses to refuse service to christians. No Bed, Bath & Beyond, no Home Depot, Costco, Starbucks, Disney World and all the various franchise operations like McDonald's, Subway, Outback, KFC and the list goes on. Such laws would allow such things.
Sign on the door of my local Souper Salad: "We Do Not Serve Non-Asians!"
Mercado Juarez: "No Gringos!"
Quick Trip: "We reserve the right to refuse service to Catholics, Negros, Redheads and Canadians!"
Cornerstone Baptist Church: "No Pentecostals!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by vimesey, posted 02-27-2014 6:02 AM vimesey has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 22 of 397 (720728)
02-27-2014 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
02-27-2014 3:31 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
Do I have this wrong or didn't this proposed law come about to protect Christian business owners such as bakers who refused on moral grounds to make a wedding cake for homosexuals or photographers who refused on moral grounds to photograph a gay wedding ceremony? ...
Apparently, although the details are not exact. What happened was a bunch of conservative christian republicans tried to pass a law to establish their beliefs ... but they did such a bad job of it, made it so general (in order to not appear to be religiously based) that people could end up discriminating against christians (heaven forfend).
... And if this is its basis, apparently you are all in favor of forcing these business people to act against their conscience? ...
Freedom of religious beliefs are already protected, what is not protected is discrimination.
... isn't this tyranny? ...
Tyranny is when laws are passed that allow discrimination over human rights.
... Whatever happened to freedom?
It was saved when this discriminatory bill was vetoed -- by a conservative republican governor.
Would you like to live in a place that had signs "no christians welcome here" or "we reserve the right to refuse service to christians" ??? Really ???
That is something the bill would have allowed.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 3:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 23 of 397 (720729)
02-27-2014 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
02-27-2014 3:31 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
Do I have this wrong or didn't this proposed law come about to protect Christian business owners such as bakers who refused on moral grounds to make a wedding cake for homosexuals or photographers who refused on moral grounds to photograph a gay wedding ceremony?
Except that gays are already unprotected in Arizona. The law came about as a reaction to stuff going on in other states.
And really. Refused to bake a cake on moral grounds? That should be taken seriously over another person's rights to be treated as a member of a human society?
Substitute blacks for gays in that sentence and you are describing the apartheid like condition that existed under Jim Crow up until the early 1960s.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 3:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(2)
Message 24 of 397 (720733)
02-27-2014 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:35 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
But being forced to make a wedding cake or take photographs which would be specifically a validation of the gay lifestyle when you consider gay marriage to be a violation of a basic principle given by God, is what I mean by tyranny
There are religious sects that place women on a pedestal lower than men. And they would consider placing women on equal footing with men to be a sin. And I am not just talking Islamic religions. What about someone who wishes to invoke Bible scriptures that stipulate how women should behave? Is that individual having their rights 'violated' because they are 'forced' to treat the opposite sex on equal footing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:35 AM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 25 of 397 (720734)
02-27-2014 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:35 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
Sin is not the same thing as race
That says it all. This one comment shows that you feel that the law is an attempt to force one subset of the populations views on to all of society. That Faith is tyranny.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:35 AM Faith has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 26 of 397 (720735)
02-27-2014 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:35 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
The only thing I might want to hold the Christians to is that if they are going to stand on conscience against homosexuality they should also stand on conscience against other sins such as adultery, unmarried couples living together and all that. However there may not be a comparison here either, if it doesn't involve actually being required to validate the adultery etc.
A bakery insisting on proof of virginity for the bride-to-be won't be selling too many wedding cakes in 2014. And probably not that many in 1914.
Cafeteria Christianity, anyone?

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:35 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2014 10:46 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 27 of 397 (720739)
02-27-2014 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Coragyps
02-27-2014 9:41 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
"Miss, if you can't prove you are a virgin don't even think about trying on one of those white dresses."

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Coragyps, posted 02-27-2014 9:41 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 28 of 397 (720740)
02-27-2014 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
02-27-2014 3:31 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
Faith writes:
And if this is its basis, apparently you are all in favor of forcing these business people to act against their conscience? Really? isn't this tyranny?
No, it's called a business license. You abide by the rules of the community, not your own rules; otherwise you don't do business in the community.
A very large number of local restaurants have staff members from India, who are vegetarians. By your standard it would be almost impossible to be served meat in a restaurant here (and the restaurantrs would promptly go out of business).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 3:31 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-27-2014 11:54 AM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 397 (720742)
02-27-2014 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by ringo
02-27-2014 10:53 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
No, it's called a business license. You abide by the rules of the community, not your own rules; otherwise you don't do business in the community.
But if that community over there wants to discriminate, and then everyone else says that they cannot do that, then are we still being communital?
When we've lost our commonality with them, aren't they less a part of our community?
Can you really force people into a "community"?
A very large number of local restaurants have staff members from India, who are vegetarians. By your standard it would be almost impossible to be served meat in a restaurant here (and the restaurantrs would promptly go out of business).
Then fuck 'em, let them pass their stupid law and let the businesses that discriminate go out of business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 02-27-2014 10:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by NoNukes, posted 02-27-2014 12:25 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 34 by Taq, posted 02-27-2014 1:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 02-28-2014 10:43 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 397 (720743)
02-27-2014 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
02-27-2014 11:54 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
Can you really force people into a "community"?
No, but can you use the force of law to allow people to be excluded from the community? Because that's what state approved discrimination amounts to.
Suppose we let it work like this? You need to discriminate, fine. But don't expect the police to help you throw me and my crew out of your restaurant. Don't expect the state to enforce your trespass suit when you decide that gays cannot be on your property that is otherwise open to the public.
Neocons and their free market approach to discrimination make me barf. Fifty years later and they are still fighting against the civil rights act of 1964.
Not sayin' that's you Coyote, but you have certainly expressed their sentiment.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-27-2014 11:54 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-27-2014 12:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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