|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Summations Only | Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
No, but can you use the force of law to allow people to be excluded from the community? I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying: 1. Person A wants to exclude Person B from their community.2. Person C does not want to allow Person A to exclude Person B from their community. 3. The law allows Person A to exclude Person B C. Person C is forced to allow Person A to exclude Person B. Am I getting that right? Why does Person B want to be with Person A if they don't want them in? And why does Person C care so much to force Person A to let Person B in? Why don't Person B and Person C get together and tell Person A to fuck off and then go form their own community without Person A? Why force Person A to accept the both of you? Why not just leave Person A in the dust?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
|
That's the bogus comparison you all try to make. Sin is not the same thing as race, and people ought to know better than to make such a comparison. Well, on the one hand there are plenty of people who think that homosexuality is no sin. And on the other hand, there are and were people who think that the abolition of racial segregation was sinful. * "The good Lord was the original segregationist." --- Ross Barnett, Governor of Mississippi. * "[T]he natural law which forbids [racial intermarriage] and that social amalgamation which leads to a corruption of races, is as clearly divine as that which imparted to [the races] different natures." --- Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, 1867. * "There is every reason to believe that miscengenation and amalgamation are sins of man in direct defiance to the will of God." --- Theodore Bilbo, two-time Governor of Mississippi and U.S. Senator. * "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix." --- Judge Leon M. Bazile, January 6, 1959. Or have a look at this article in defense of segregation, which cites many chapters and verses of the Bible: * "Many others are pushing integration: The YMCA, religious liberals, various dubbed dogooders, etc., and many sincere and good ministers of the Gospel. They have succumbed to and been traduced by the integration propaganda of the Communist Party, the NAACP, and various liberal and unorthodox theologians bleating their shibboleths of 'Justice' and 'Freedom.' In the interest of their unnatural religious and social philosophy, they are working to destroy the races that God has created, crying 'oneworld brotherhood' and 'racial equality,' neither of which conceptions have any substantiation whatsoever in the Scripture." Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Now let the author tell you why it's sinful to appoint black people to positions in the government: * "The plan moves on apace. An editorial in Life informs us with pride that President Eisenhower "has appointed more than a dozen Negroes to important government positions, notably J. Ernest Wilkins of Chicago, Assistant Secretary of Labor for International Affairs and the first Negro to achieve subcabinet rank." We are told also that "Sherman Adams' staff includes the first White House Negro secretary." It might be a good thing for the President, his advisers, and the voters as well, to remember what happened to King Jeroboam and other rulers in Israel for making the same mistake. Yes, the Bible is a discriminating Book, both as to race and creed." Now, my point is that you can hardly expect the law to single out your notion of what is sinful as the correct one that should be followed, over and above that of other religious groups. Instead, we have a secular Constitution where the concept of sin as such is irrelevant.
But being forced to make a wedding cake or take photographs which would be specifically a validation of the gay lifestyle when you consider gay marriage to be a violation of a basic principle given by God, is what I mean by tyranny. And is it also "tyranny" when someone who sincerely believes that interracial marriage is "a violation of a basic principle given by God" discriminates against a mixed-race couple rather than "validate" their "lifestyle"? If the only difference is that you personally think that one is against God's principles and the other isn't, then you don't have a leg to stand on. The law cannot exalt the doctrines of your chosen sect of your chosen religion over other sects and religions. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
|
Sin is not the same thing as race Sin is not the same thing as law. We are talking about laws that govern christians, muslims, jews, hindus, atheists, etc. These are secular laws, not edicts of a specific religion. If you open and operate a business you must comply with the laws of the land. If that includes not discriminating against people, then you are beholden to those laws.
But being forced to make a wedding cake or take photographs which would be specifically a validation of the gay lifestyle when you consider gay marriage to be a violation of a basic principle given by God, is what I mean by tyranny. No different than being required to allow people of color sit at your lunch counter. Baking a cake or taking someone's picture does not equate to you personally validating their lifestyle. That is completely preposterous. I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it says that you can not bake a cake for a gay person. If its in there, please show us. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
|
Then fuck 'em, let them pass their stupid law and let the businesses that discriminate go out of business. Sure. Just look at how well that worked in the South with segregation. Oh wait . . .
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Then fuck 'em, let them pass their stupid law and let the businesses that discriminate go out of business.
Sure. Just look at how well that worked in the South with segregation. Oh wait . . . Saw that one coming from a mile away. This is nothing like that. Black people had no option. They had no Yelp apps. They had no voice. They needed the help. Its different today.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I responded to this thread without knowing how the law is worded, just hearing from you all a lot of hatred toward anyone who objects to the homosexual lifestyle, and remembered the incidents where business owners were sued for refusing to make a wedding cake for a homosexual wedding or take photographs for the same situation.
As I said I don't know how this law was worded but if it's intended to protect people from being forced to do such things it sounds to me like it's simply meant to protect freedom of conscience which I thought this country was supposed to be all about. You all have been making comparisons with racism which isn't the case if it is intended for the circumstances I'm remembering, and with general opposition to homosexuality which I gather may also not be what it's about, but only about being forced to do something that validates gay marriage. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. If it is for what I'm guessing it is, then I'd doubt that either of these business owners would have refused to sell the same customers a cake over the counter or to make portrait photographs; it's only about refusing to participate in a gay wedding. So, if that's what it's all about then let's keep this discussion specific to that sort of thing: you are all still in favor of forcing people to make wedding cakes and take photographs for a gay wedding, and deny them the freedom of conscience to refuse that kind of service? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ooh-child Member (Idle past 374 days) Posts: 242 Joined:
|
Specifically, if a business owner is open to the public marketplace, then there are certain rules to participate. Just because a business is privately owned doesn't mean they can discriminate against certain customers.
Some states protect gays & lesbians as a class, but Arizona does not. So, even though this bill was vetoed, there's still the question of businesses refusing to serve them, or hire them. Sounds to me like they still can. The last refuge during the civil rights era for racists was the 'religion' card, just as it is the last refuge today for those bigots who would like to discriminate against gays. That's the parallel, Faith.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
saab93f Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 265 From: Finland Joined: |
So, if that's what it's all about then let's keep this discussion specific to that sort of thing: you are all still in favor of forcing people to make wedding cakes and take photographs for a gay wedding, and deny them the freedom of conscience to refuse that kind of service? Why should religious conviction be given any thought over equality, tolerance or just basic humanity. The people who are in favour of legislation such as this are just bigoted and evil. I cannot comprehend why religious conviction is at all given any more weight than if I was to refuse service because I play badminton or am an active in a political party.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
|
why does person B want to be with person A person A is tired hungry and out of gas and wants a place to eat, sleep, or to just move on. I am suggesting that the state does not help person A be denied basic human dignity by a homophobe, racist xenophobe. I'm not even going so far as to have the state help A, but at least they are not on the wrong side of a moral question if they help A rather than B.
C. Person C is forced to allow Person A to exclude person B. That seems to be what you advocate. No, the state should not aid discrimination. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I cannot comprehend why religious conviction is at all given any more weight than if I was to refuse service because I play badminton or am an active in a political party. Yes, this is where the culture has gone, against freedom of conscience and from the sound of it you're all happy with this and freedom of conscience is as good as dead. So when someone refuses to validate gay marriage off to prison with them. OK, that's the way it's going I guess. What you all of course fail to recognize is that YOU are the bigoted ones who hate anyone with a moral conviction against gay marriage or the homosexual lifestyle and you are willing to force them to do YOUR will rather than their own. Freedom is SUPPOSED to be for DIFFERING opinions. No more, obviously, now we all toe the party line or else. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
|
Faith writes: So, if that's what it's all about then let's keep this discussion specific to that sort of thing: Yes, you have the context correct.
you are all still in favor of forcing people to make wedding cakes and take photographs for a gay wedding, and deny them the freedom of conscience to refuse that kind of service? Yes, mostly. That is... I'm in favor of forcing them to make wedding cakes for gay weddings and deny them "the freedom of conscience to refuse that kind of service" if they want to have a business that provides services for the public. That is... I'm not going to go to your house and force you to make cakes for the gays just 'cause I think you should. But... if you want to have a cake-making business that provides services to the public... then, yes, I want to force you to make cakes for the gays. Because "the gays" are part of "the public." That's the issue here.Refusing to make cakes for gay people is not "denying the freedom of conscience to refuse service" for the cake maker. That's silly. Refusing to make cakes for gay people is "denying that gay people are part of 'the public'"Refusing to make cakes for gay people is "denying that gay people are part of society" Refusing to make cakes for gay people is "denying that gay people are people" And that's just mean.
(He submitted as the understatement of the year)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Right. Like I just posted. So what's going to happen is that people with a strong moral conviction against gay marriage are going to give up their businesses and go to prison. You're even willing to redefine the situation to be sure you put it in the worst possible light. That's the way the culture is going. That's what you all want.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
|
Faith writes: anyone with a moral conviction against gay marriage or the homosexual lifestyle and you are willing to force them to do YOUR will rather than their own. That is not true. No one is forcing anyone else to have a gay marriage or live a homosexual life style. You are just pissed because we don't want you to be able to pass laws to sanction discrimination against people you don't approve of. You would be raving if the Catholics got a law passed that said anyone who wants to, can discriminate against protestants.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
|
Right. Like I just posted. So what's going to happen is that people with a strong moral conviction against gay marriage are going to give up their businesses and go to prison. People made the same complaints when they outlawed segregation.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
saab93f Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 265 From: Finland Joined:
|
Please tell me Faith how not being human can be moral?
Using such a cowardly justification for hatefulness and pettiness speaks more about religion than of anything else.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024