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Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
The community extends from the municipal level to the state level and the federal level. So the community as a whole does impose certain standards on its parts.
Can you really force people into a "community"? Catholic Scientist writes:
We really have no choice but to "let" them pass their law and see if the broader community will allow it. Then fuck 'em, let them pass their stupid law and let the businesses that discriminate go out of business. Of course letting them do whatever they damn well please is not something that has ever worked out very well.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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We really have no choice but to "let" them pass their law and see if the broader community will allow it. What we saw was that the broader community raised such a groundswell of objection that the law was vetoed for being the bad law that it was -- it was like the "stand your ground" for bigots everywhere: discriminate first then justify it because your beliefs were threatened. Instead of laws to protect bullies we should have laws that protect victims. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
RAZD writes:
Exactly. The law comes ultimately from the people. It's easier to get rid of a bad law when the people are ready to be rid of it,
What we saw was that the broader community raised such a groundswell of objection that the law was vetoed for being the bad law that it was....
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined:
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Right. Like I just posted. So what's going to happen is that people with a strong moral conviction against gay marriage are going to give up their businesses and go to prison. You're even willing to redefine the situation to be sure you put it in the worst possible light. That's the way the culture is going. That's what you all want. That would be exactly the thing to do. If one hates the idea of gays having equality (or in fact if you dislike anything about the culture you live in) get yourself sent to prison for 27 years (should be easy in Freedom loving America) and protest about it. It worked for Nelson Mandela. Or whine about it not being okay to refuse services to gays on the internet Edited by Larni, : DVD extras. Does anyone still watch DVDs?The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53 The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286 Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Interesting of course that religious liberty to this writer is only about PRIVATE practices, but if religious liberty is also about PUBLIC practices, which it always was in America until rather recently, then religious liberty may very well be at risk. Since when does religious liberty mean that you can force others to abide by your religious beliefs?
If religious liberty includes the right to refuse service to anyone . . . It doesn't. It never has. If you are part of the Aryan Nation Church (which is a real church) you can not deny people access to your hotel because of your race, even though it goes against your religious beliefs to treat people of color equally.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined:
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Those of us who believe the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God will choose to die rather than be forced to do something that violates it. Apparently that's all right with you. Welcome to the USSA. Not letting you die for Jesus would be infringing your right to practice your religion. Edited by Larni, : I haven't bought a DVD is years.The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53 The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286 Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
So Christian restauranteurs would rather die than go into a different line of work? I'm dubious of that claim.
Those of us who believe the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God will choose to die rather than be forced to do something that violates it.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined:
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Who are you or the state to dictate to a person's conscience? It is not dictating conscience, it is dictating behaviour. It is perfectly fine to imagine smashing someone's window in, but not to actually do it. It's not thought police: it's behaviour police.
I can only hope Christians will have the backbone to choose God over all these forces of bigotry against them no matter what the consequences. Back to having the right not to be forced not to die, again? So soon?
So we go out of business then and have to live on the streets. Same difference. But, you said Christians were willing to die rather than bake cakes for the gays? So dying is fine but being poor and destitute is not? Edited by Larni, : Most of the time I just stream stuff off of the Inter Nets Edited by Larni, : Or torrent it. Edited by Larni, : But I try to pay for things more these days. Edited by Larni, : Since I turned forty I'm trying to be more upstandingThe above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53 The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286 Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3132 days) Posts: 1548 Joined:
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The obtuseness to the moral issue here is truly amazing. However, although you don't get it , again, let's leave it to the people who DO have a conscience against baking a wedding cake for a homosexual couple because to them it's like condoning gay marriage which they believe violates the Law of God. Can you decide to not sell a cake to black people or Jews or any other racial minority in a buisness? How about atheists? How about Roman Catholics? Do you see where this is going? It's called discrimination. Your right to own a business does not trump someone else's right for equal treatment under the law.
Who are you or the state to dictate to a person's conscience? It has nothing to do with conscience. You can choose not to own a business at all. It is your choice. If you do own a business, than you need to treat your customers equally. Either that or go to some other oppressive country where you can discriminate to your hearts content.
But again, if you, as a good citizen of the USSA, want to force it on Christians, I and many other Christians vehemently disagree with you. Don't lump us in with your small subsect of Christian society.
I can only hope Christians will have the backbone to choose God over all these forces of bigotry against them no matter what the consequences. Now, who is the bigot refusing services to a group of people? I hope Christians have the backbone to stand up to bigots who refuse to provide equal treatment under the law. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given."It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World "In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3132 days) Posts: 1548 Joined:
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Those of us who believe the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God will choose to die rather than be forced to do something that violates it. No it should read: Those of us who believe in our particular interpretation of the Bible that supports our bigoted views will choose to die rather than be forced to do something that violates our bigoted views."It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World "In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3132 days) Posts: 1548 Joined:
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You could always serve the public in a non-discriminatory fashion. Last I checked, baking a cake for a homosexual will not send you to Hell.
How sad, that many Christians such as Faith, forget that LOVE for God and fellow humans is the message that the gospel is centered on. Do we forget that Jesus associated with, ate with, preached and taught to the social outcasts (tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, beggers, fisherman, the poor, criminals, cripples, non-Jews, Samaritans, non-believers, idollators, etc, etc). Jesus didn't associate with the judgemental, holier than thou, hypocritical religious establishment. He ministered to the oppressed, the abused, the down-trodden. And you wonder why people are morally opposed to Christian fundamentalists. It is not the gospel message that many non-Christians are opposed to. It is the pharisaical, judgeamental and hypocrtical holier-than-thou attitude and mandates some "Christians" try to impose on the non-religious. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given."It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World "In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism
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ooh-child Member (Idle past 375 days) Posts: 242 Joined: |
Do we forget that Jesus associated with, ate with, preached and taught to the social outcasts And he really didn't have much to say about homosexuality, either. Reportedly.
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3132 days) Posts: 1548 Joined:
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And he really didn't have much to say about homosexuality, either. Reportedly. Correct, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. However, Paul does mention it as a sin in Romans, I Corinthians and I Timothy. I am not debating whether homosexuality is considered a sin or not, because according to the Bible it is. But so are a lot of things such as not loving and caring for your spouse and family, pride, lying, fighting, cursing, gossip, unjustified anger, adultery, lust, envy, gluttony, greed, laziness, etc. All of which Christians are guilty of themselves. However, whether you believe it to be a sin or not has no play in how you treat people. According to the Bible, Christianity, and Jesus: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 If you turn away homosexuals than you need to turn everyone away because sin is sin according to the Bible and God. But again, the business owner is sinful too. Where do you draw the line? This very line of logic of discriminating against homosexuals is morally inconsistent with Jesus teachings. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given."It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World "In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3132 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Faith writes: Naa, they can kill me if they want. Martyr complex much? Fluke Starbucker: C'mon, Auggie Ben Doggie!Princess Anne-Droid: Get to the ship! Run for it! Ham Salad: C'mon! Let's go! Auggie Ben Doggie: [waving them off] No, you go on without me... I'll be all right... Don't worry about me... Ham Salad: Aw, jeez! Fluke Starbucker: Jeez! What a martyr! Princess Anne-Droid: What a martyr, I can't believe this! Ham Salad: Yeah. See ya later, you martyr Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given."It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World "In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism
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Tempe 12ft Chicken Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined: |
Because that would be ridiculous, you seem like a nice enough person online, albeit sadly misinformed. Someone wanting to kill you for your beliefs seems about as likely as us flying a human to the center of Jupiter. Someone disagreeing with your beliefs, however, seems much more likely...maybe like someone catching a baseball likely. Not a foul ball, but just catching one thrown to them...in other words, you being disagreed with on your beliefs is a near certainty, death because of them a huge implausibility.
Also, Faith, I am still waiting for your answer to this question: Would it be okay with you if I was a Bible-believing Christian whose beliefs said that because of Timothy 2:12, women should not be in positions of authority, therefore I own a business and refuse to hire qualified women for managerial positions within my company? According to my (in this case hypothetical) firmly held belief, this would be reasonable and allowed with the attempted law in AZ. So, would you be willing to defend this type of religious freedom as well Faith?The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams
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