Summations Only

The community extends from the municipal level to the state level and the federal level. So the community as a whole does impose certain standards on its parts. We really have no choice but to "let" them pass their law and see if the broader community will allow it.Of course letting them do whatever they damn well please is not something that has ever worked out very well.

What we saw was that the broader community raised such a groundswell of objection that the law was vetoed for being the bad law that it was -- it was like the "stand your ground" for bigots everywhere: discriminate first then justify it because your beliefs were threatened.Instead of laws to protect bullies we should have laws that protect victims.

Exactly. The law comes ultimately from the people. It's easier to get rid of a bad law when the people are ready to be rid of it,

That would be exactly the thing to do.If one hates the idea of gays having equality (or in fact if you dislike anything about the culture you live in) get yourself sent to prison for 27 years (should be easy in Freedom loving America) and protest about it.It worked for Nelson Mandela.Or whine about it not being okay to refuse services to gays on the internetEdited by Larni, : DVD extras. Does anyone still watch DVDs?

Since when does religious liberty mean that you can force others to abide by your religious beliefs? It doesn't. It never has. If you are part of the Aryan Nation Church (which is a real church) you can not deny people access to your hotel because of your race, even though it goes against your religious beliefs to treat people of color equally.

Not letting you die for Jesus would be infringing your right to practice your religion. Edited by Larni, : I haven't bought a DVD is years.

So Christian restauranteurs would rather die than go into a different line of work? I'm dubious of that claim.

It is not dictating conscience, it is dictating behaviour.It is perfectly fine to imagine smashing someone's window in, but not to actually do it.It's not thought police: it's behaviour police. Back to having the right not to be forced not to die, again? So soon? But, you said Christians were willing to die rather than bake cakes for the gays?So dying is fine but being poor and destitute is not?Edited by Larni, : Most of the time I just stream stuff off of the Inter NetsEdited by Larni, : Or torrent it.Edited by Larni, : But I try to pay for things more these days.Edited by Larni, : Since I turned forty I'm trying to be more upstanding

Can you decide to not sell a cake to black people or Jews or any other racial minority in a buisness? How about atheists? How about Roman Catholics?Do you see where this is going?It's called discrimination. Your right to own a business does not trump someone else's right for equal treatment under the law. It has nothing to do with conscience. You can choose not to own a business at all. It is your choice. If you do own a business, than you need to treat your customers equally. Either that or go to some other oppressive country where you can discriminate to your hearts content. I and many other Christians vehemently disagree with you. Don't lump us in with your small subsect of Christian society. Now, who is the bigot refusing services to a group of people?I hope Christians have the backbone to stand up to bigots who refuse to provide equal treatment under the law.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

No it should read:Those of us who believe in our particular interpretation of the Bible that supports our bigoted views will choose to die rather than be forced to do something that violates our bigoted views.

How sad, that many Christians such as Faith, forget that LOVE for God and fellow humans is the message that the gospel is centered on.Do we forget that Jesus associated with, ate with, preached and taught to the social outcasts (tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, beggers, fisherman, the poor, criminals, cripples, non-Jews, Samaritans, non-believers, idollators, etc, etc). Jesus didn't associate with the judgemental, holier than thou, hypocritical religious establishment. He ministered to the oppressed, the abused, the down-trodden.And you wonder why people are morally opposed to Christian fundamentalists. It is not the gospel message that many non-Christians are opposed to. It is the pharisaical, judgeamental and hypocrtical holier-than-thou attitude and mandates some "Christians" try to impose on the non-religious.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

And he really didn't have much to say about homosexuality, either.Reportedly.

Correct, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. However, Paul does mention it as a sin in Romans, I Corinthians and I Timothy.I am not debating whether homosexuality is considered a sin or not, because according to the Bible it is. But so are a lot of things such as not loving and caring for your spouse and family, pride, lying, fighting, cursing, gossip, unjustified anger, adultery, lust, envy, gluttony, greed, laziness, etc. All of which Christians are guilty of themselves.However, whether you believe it to be a sin or not has no play in how you treat people. According to the Bible, Christianity, and Jesus: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23If you turn away homosexuals than you need to turn everyone away because sin is sin according to the Bible and God. But again, the business owner is sinful too. Where do you draw the line?This very line of logic of discriminating against homosexuals is morally inconsistent with Jesus teachings.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Martyr complex much?Fluke Starbucker: C'mon, Auggie Ben Doggie!
Princess Anne-Droid: Get to the ship! Run for it!
Ham Salad: C'mon! Let's go!
Auggie Ben Doggie: [waving them off] No, you go on without me... I'll be all right... Don't worry about me...
Ham Salad: Aw, jeez!
Fluke Starbucker: Jeez! What a martyr!
Princess Anne-Droid: What a martyr, I can't believe this!
Ham Salad: Yeah. See ya later, you martyrEdited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Because that would be ridiculous, you seem like a nice enough person online, albeit sadly misinformed. Someone wanting to kill you for your beliefs seems about as likely as us flying a human to the center of Jupiter. Someone disagreeing with your beliefs, however, seems much more likely...maybe like someone catching a baseball likely. Not a foul ball, but just catching one thrown to them...in other words, you being disagreed with on your beliefs is a near certainty, death because of them a huge implausibility.Also, Faith, I am still waiting for your answer to this question:Would it be okay with you if I was a Bible-believing Christian whose beliefs said that because of Timothy 2:12, women should not be in positions of authority, therefore I own a business and refuse to hire qualified women for managerial positions within my company? According to my (in this case hypothetical) firmly held belief, this would be reasonable and allowed with the attempted law in AZ. So, would you be willing to defend this type of religious freedom as well Faith?