Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(2)
Message 256 of 397 (721316)
03-06-2014 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Theodoric
03-06-2014 11:55 AM


Most Christians disagree with Faith
Where is this right of which you speak granted? I do not see the tight to refuse service anywhere. Not in Constitution or Bill of Rights or any state constitution.
There is no right to refuse service.
It is a "right" manufactured by ultra-ultra-conservatives. I would say even the vast majority of Christian denominations out there i.e. Methodists (of which I am a member), Roman Catholics, Presbyterian, Episcopalian etc. with exception of the few outlier extremists do not support the Arizona law. Even some members of the conservative Southern Baptist Convention are on the fence with this issue.
Russell Moore, the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission at the Southern Baptist Convention has recently jumped into the debate about whether wedding photographers should record same-sex weddings.
Moore wrote in a Gospel Coalition column that "the couple asking you to do this wedding aren't your enemies. They are made in the image of God and loved by him and so should be loved by us." But Moore advised against participating, saying, "But we must stand with kindness as well as with conviction."
This issues is a touchy subject, but I think some Christians are over-reacting on this and making this a bigger moral dilemna than it really is. After all, Jesus ate, drank and talked to people considered moral deginerates.
Taking photos or baking a cake is not condoning a practice any more than someone who makes a cake for an Islamic or Hindu wedding is condoning that marriage.
If you consider photographing homosexual weddings as the same as affirming that marriage, than you as a Christian would be a hypocrite if you photographed weddings of non-Christians, divorced Christians, or people who slept together before marriage (which includes some Christians). Where do you draw the line. According to the Bible, sin is sin. Those who have pre-marital sex are as guilty as homosexuals, are they not? However, no one is making a big deal of baking cakes or photographing for these couples.
Faith, I encourage you to rationally read the following three articles. The second one is from the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission at the Southern Baptist Convention (not exactly a liberal source).
Would Jesus Bake a Cake for a Gay Wedding in Arizona?...... | News & Reporting | Christianity Today
Should a Christian Photographer Work at a Same-Sex Wedding Ceremony?
Conservative Christians Selectively Apply Biblical Teachings in the Same-Sex Marriage Debate
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Theodoric, posted 03-06-2014 11:55 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 257 of 397 (721318)
03-06-2014 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by AZPaul3
03-06-2014 2:10 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
Far as I know all I'm condoning is the right to conscientiously refuse to do anything that is felt to support gay marriage. No hatred of people is involved at all, except possibly from your side against mine.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2014 2:10 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by ooh-child, posted 03-06-2014 3:17 PM Faith has replied
 Message 291 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2014 4:52 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 351 by RAZD, posted 03-07-2014 6:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 258 of 397 (721319)
03-06-2014 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by DevilsAdvocate
03-06-2014 2:26 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Taking photos or baking a cake is not condoning a practice any more than someone who makes a cake for an Islamic or Hindu wedding is condoning that marriage.
Really you ought to leave it to the people involved to define what is a matter of conscience.
ABE I agree that Christians should not do anything at all to condone any kind of sin whatever, but again, what a person feels to be a condoning act is not for you to define. /ABE
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 2:26 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 3:58 PM Faith has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 259 of 397 (721320)
03-06-2014 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
03-06-2014 9:20 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
Hi Faith,
Just reading your well-reasoned posts. I'm with you all way on this issue. I can't believe america has 'evolved' into a society that takes a stand AGAINST freedom of conscience.
I work as a furrier who sometimes does some tailoring on the slide. Well, a few weeks ago, this 'individual' came in asking for alterations on a suit that had a blend of rayon AND cotton. Can you believe it?! A garment with a BLEND of materials!!! Well, let me tells ya, the fascist laws of the united states is not gonna tell ME who I have to do business with. So I threw 'Joseph and his Amazing Multi-blended Dreamcoat' to the curb.
I'll NEVER stop refusing service on the grounds of MY conscience, logic and obviously superior Christian values.
Leviticus 19:19: "neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 9:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:17 PM dronestar has replied

  
ooh-child
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 242
Joined: 04-10-2009


(1)
Message 260 of 397 (721321)
03-06-2014 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
03-06-2014 3:08 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
Far as I know all I'm condoning is the right to conscientiously refuse to do anything that is felt to support gay marriage.
Then don't set up a business in the public marketplace. Keep to private clubs, organizations, and the like. This is the core of the issue, Faith. Believe what you want, support whom you want, but keep it private.
Once you enter into the public, you have rules to participate in that public place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:18 PM ooh-child has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 261 of 397 (721322)
03-06-2014 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by dronestar
03-06-2014 3:15 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
You might read my posts on the subject of what in the OT applied only to the Israelites.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by dronestar, posted 03-06-2014 3:15 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by dronestar, posted 03-06-2014 3:23 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 262 of 397 (721323)
03-06-2014 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by ooh-child
03-06-2014 3:17 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
I see, now not only is a person denied freedom of conscience but even the freedom to start a business.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by ooh-child, posted 03-06-2014 3:17 PM ooh-child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by ooh-child, posted 03-06-2014 3:22 PM Faith has replied

  
ooh-child
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 242
Joined: 04-10-2009


Message 263 of 397 (721324)
03-06-2014 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
03-06-2014 3:18 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
So, you want folks to be able to run a business any way they want? No regulations, no laws restricting business practices, is that it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:31 PM ooh-child has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 264 of 397 (721325)
03-06-2014 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Faith
03-06-2014 3:17 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
Faith writes:
You might read my posts on the subject of what in the OT applied only to the Israelites.
Considering the topic "not being allowed to discriminate against violations/violators in the OT," the irony of you writing that is off the charts.
Edited by dronester, : clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:31 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 265 of 397 (721326)
03-06-2014 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by ooh-child
03-06-2014 3:22 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
No of course businesses have to be regulated. I'm talking about a matter of personal conscience which should not be regulated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by ooh-child, posted 03-06-2014 3:22 PM ooh-child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by ooh-child, posted 03-06-2014 3:44 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 266 of 397 (721327)
03-06-2014 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by dronestar
03-06-2014 3:23 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by dronestar, posted 03-06-2014 3:23 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 267 of 397 (721328)
03-06-2014 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
03-06-2014 10:07 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
There is no way you are going to get me to treat homosexuality as the equivalent of race.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 03-06-2014 10:07 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 268 of 397 (721329)
03-06-2014 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Heathen
03-06-2014 10:30 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
There is no way you are going to get me to treat homosexuality as the equivalent of race or sex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Heathen, posted 03-06-2014 10:30 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by dronestar, posted 03-06-2014 3:52 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 349 by Heathen, posted 03-07-2014 5:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
ooh-child
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 242
Joined: 04-10-2009


Message 269 of 397 (721330)
03-06-2014 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Faith
03-06-2014 3:31 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
One person's 'personal conscience' is this country's bigotry. 'Public accomodation' was settled with our civil rights legislation 50 years ago. I'm surprised you're not well versed in American history, proud patriot that you are.
Civil rights movement - Wikipedia(1955%E2%80%9368)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:51 PM ooh-child has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 270 of 397 (721331)
03-06-2014 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Taq
03-06-2014 10:38 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
There is no way you are going to get me to treat homosexuality as the equivalent of race.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Taq, posted 03-06-2014 10:38 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Coragyps, posted 03-06-2014 6:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 338 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 2:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024