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Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009

Message 391 of 397 (721517)
03-08-2014 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by DevilsAdvocate
03-08-2014 1:29 AM

Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
DA writes:
Of course Adam died physically as well as spiritually. Or is Adam the 2000 year old man (that's a joke).
I was born ten thousand years ago
And there's nothing in this world that I don't know
I saw Peter, Paul, and Moses playing ring around the roses
And I'll lick the guy that say it isn't so
I saw Satan when he looked the garden o'er
I saw Eve and Adam driven from the door
And behind the bushes peepin', saw the apple they were eatin'
And I swear 'cause I'm the guy that ate the core
I saw Jonah when he was within the whale
And thought he'd never live to tell the tale
But old Jonah'd eaten garlic, and he gave the whale the colic
So he coughed him up and let him out of jail
I saw Israel in the battle of the Nile
The arrows were flying thick and fast and wild
I saw David with his sling pop Goliath on the wing
I was doing forty seconds to the mile
I saw Sampson when he laid the village cold
Saw Daniel tame the lions in their hold
I helped build the Tower of Babel up as high as they were able
And there's many other things I haven't told
I taught Soloman his little A-B-C's
I helped Brigham Young to make limberger cheese
And while sailing down the bay with Methusala one day
I saved his flowing whiskers from the breeze
Queen Elizabeth, she fell in love with me
We were married in Milwaukee secretly
But I schemed around and shook her, then she went with General Hooker
To shoot mosquitoes down in Tenessee
I remember when the country had a king
I saw Cleopatra pawn her wedding ring
And I saw th flags a'flyin' when George Washington stopped lyin'
On the night when Patty first begin to sing
So, you see I am an educated man
To keep my brains in my head I plan
Cause I been on earth so long, that I use to sing a song
While Abraham and Isaac played the band
I was born ten thousand years ago
And there's nothing in this world that I don't know
I saw Peter, Paul and Moses playing ring-around-the-roses
And I can lick the guy that says it isn't so
- from somewhere
DA also asks:
why would there be a tree of life in the Garden of Eden if Adam could live forever from the get go?
Maybe it should be called the Tree of Death!
Why indeed, as Captain Kirk asked, . . . why would God need a starship?

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-08-2014 1:29 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Inactive Member

Message 392 of 397 (721520)
03-08-2014 1:14 PM

Topic drift Alert
The original topic was as follows:
So, this recent Bill that is awaiting the signature of Gov. Jan Brewer is yet another shining example of the legislators in Arizona not understanding...pretty much anything that is occuring in the world.
Al Melvin was on Anderson Cooper defending the bill and its ability to protect religious freedom, but had no answer for why this bill was even necessary in a state that does not view homsexuals as a protected class. In fact, our "esteemed" state senator/Governor candidate did not even admit that if someone was fired simply for being gay or lesbian this would constitute discrimination. Cooper did not even ask if it was discrimination in Arizona, but just if he considered someone being fired for this reason an example of discrimination.
Another shining example of the intelligence currently in residence in our State Senate is the fact that three Republicans have come forward saying they just voted yes because of limited time and explanation about the scope of the Bill. Had these three voted how they now, less than one week later, say they should have, the measure would have lost in the Senate 16-14. Instead, because of the strong right in AZ, they bowed to the party and now have to try and save face before upcoming elections.
Is there a possible purpose to this bill, in a state that says it is okay to discriminate on the basis of sexuality anyways. Would an atheist have the freedom to refuse a Christian because their presence puts an undue burden on the atheist to be respectful because so much of what atheists say has a tendency to offend the religious? Could a Muslim refuse service to a Christian because of the historical animosity between the two groups?
How about if I were a Christian who truly believed in the verse, Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a women to teach or have authority over a man, she must be quiet." Am I allowed to operate a business and refuse to offer qualified women managerial positions because of my religious beliefs?
This law is, in my opinion, an exercise in futility (similar to 1070), that will eventually be crushed as unconstitutional and I think for this reason, and the massive loss of business (possibly the Super Bowl as well), that Jan Brewer will veto this legialation and may have a little sit down with the Repubs in the Senate and try and tone them down slightly. Any other thoughts on the Bassackwardsness of my state with this current legislation? Does anyone think that it has any qualities that would allow it to stand up to constitutional scrutiny?
This topic is not about religion...except in direct reference to the topic.

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Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010

Message 393 of 397 (721521)
03-08-2014 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Faith
03-08-2014 7:34 AM

Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
We don't need to assume there was no Fall to assume such high numbers you know. They lived even after the Fall to be hundreds of years old so they *could* have had many more than you are accounting for, but what scant evidence there is suggests nobody was procreating at the rate you have in mind, although I agree it certainly seems possible. In Genesis 5, the list of patriarchs, the first son is said to have been conceived when the father is around a hundred years old or older and then other sons and daughters are mentioned but not specified. If Genesis 10 gives the whole picture, Noah only had three sons although he lived to be 950. His descendants, listed by sons only, don't add up to huge numbers, maybe half a dozen to a father, sometimes only two. It's possible of course that many were not reported, only the major heirs in a line, and certainly daughters must have been born but weren't named. But specific names of the men are given, whose genealogies are followed down the centuries, which suggests that the numbers weren't anywhere near what you are guessing, for whatever reason, even for those generations that lived hundreds of years.
What you don't understand that whatever way you put it the population growth would be exponential. even if every couple had a child every 100 years it would just take 8400 years for the number of people to exceed the capabilities of my spreadsheet.
the only solution would be for god to castrate everyone when the population number reaches a cretin point. Or god foresaw this and made sure we ate the apple so people would die off.
to the admin im going from the title
Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
maths is basic thinking a world where no one dies and everyone can breed would logically produce an exponential growth of the population, those who are thinking that being immortal on earth if we dint eat the apple are not thinking because it would not take long for the earth to be filled back to back with humans.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 7:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 6:27 PM frako has not replied

Suspended Member (Idle past 1560 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001

Message 394 of 397 (721524)
03-08-2014 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by frako
03-08-2014 2:02 PM

exponential population growth
Of course I get that but it didn't happen when the people were living hundreds of years so why should it happen at all? In fact if you simply calculate all the children Adam and Eve could have had on a normal life span plus those of all their children and children's children the planet would be overrun very fast anyway. Same with Noah's sons, and their less long-lived descendants. Population CAN grow very fast with normal life spans but there is no reason to assume that it will. BUT IF IT DID AND THE FALL HAD NOT HAPPENED, there would have been all kinds of options we can't even guess at.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by frako, posted 03-08-2014 2:02 PM frako has not replied

Suspended Member (Idle past 1560 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001

Message 395 of 397 (721525)
03-08-2014 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by ringo
03-08-2014 11:47 AM

The Fall from the Topic
It might help if you simply followed the conversation, which frako started.
Which is now seriously off topic however.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by ringo, posted 03-08-2014 11:47 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Member (Idle past 3216 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008

Message 396 of 397 (721528)
03-08-2014 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
03-08-2014 5:56 AM

Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
Only because of the Fall, but it was not a part of the original Creation.
You even admitted that plants dies before Adam's fall. So death did exist for some of creation before the Fall.
You are adding the "spiritual" to limit it to "spiritual death" but the normal reading is physical death. It includes spiritual death just as eternal life also includes the resurrected body.
I am not limiting it to spiritual death per se, so much as making emphasis that spiritual death is much more eternally consequential than physical death. And I think that is the intent of this scripture as well.
Look at this section of the Bible in context. Paul says in Romans 6:19-23
Romans 6:19 writes:
I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
What kind of death is he talking about? A spiritual death, a spiritual separation from God. Everyone dies a physical death, so it is evident he is not talking about a physical death here. Paul is saying that we need to die to our sins, so that we may live eternally with God without being spiritually separated from Him.
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Eternal life after our physical bodies have died a physical death.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The wages of sin is eternal separation from God aka spiritual death. The gift of God for those in Christ is eternal life of our souls/heavenly body.
Even Charles Spurgeon who you recognize as a respected theologian discusses spiritual death in his Novermber 1, 1885 sermon in relation to the Romans 6:23 passage.
Charles Spurgeon in "Death and Life The Wage and the Gift" writes:
To set forth this terrible fact, I shall make a few observations. First, death is the natural result of all sin. When man acts according to God’s order, he lives, but when he breaks his Maker’s laws, he wrecks himself and does that which
causes death. The Lord warned Adam thusIn the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die. Dying does not mean ceasing to exist, for Adam did not cease to exist, nor do those who die. The term, death, conveys to me no such idea as that of ceasing to exist, or how could I understand that word in 1 John 3:14He that loves not his brother abides in death? How could a man abide in annihilation? A grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, but it does not cease to be! No, rather, it brings forth much fruit.
That Adam did die in the day when he ate of that fruit is certain, or else the
Lord spoke not the truth. His nature was wrecked and ruined by separation from God and by a fall from that condition which constitutes the true life of man.
When any man commits sin, he dies to holiness and purity. No transgression is
venial, but every sin is mortal and genders death...
All desire after God and all delight in Him die out where sin reigns. Death is the separation of the soul from God.
Alas, this death has passed upon all men!
Since sin as naturally brings spiritual death upon men as fire brings burning, death is spoken of as the wages of sin
Here is a good link that explains the context of Romans 6:23 in relation to spiritual and physical death:
. In context it is WE who are putting to death our deeds through the Spirit, not Christ.
I concur and believe we are saying the same thing here.
We will be CHANGED, scripture says, not that we will "lose" our bodies but that they will be glorified and perfected.
Ok, "lose" is probably not the most ideal word to use here. Transformed or changed is a better word.
The only point is that they WILL be bodies, we will not be disembodied spirits, like angels or demons and ghosts. Jesus made a point of emphasizing that.
I concur they will bodies but not flawed physical, mortal bodies.Also, angels and demons had bodies as well, though not physical, mortal ones.
So we agree on that much. What we disagree about is that Christ's death redeemed our physical bodies from death which came upon us because of sin at the Fall,
He redeemed our immortal souls not our physical mortal bodies per se.
I don't see where you conclude that Jesus redeemed our physical mortal bodies.
Our physical bodies will decay into the ground will it not? Unless your body is mummified or somehow preserved, a human body even in a casket will decompose to bones within a matter of years and bones will decompose to dust in several hundred years in a casket. So it will be a miraculous occurrence by God to raise our physical bodies from the dead , since many of these physical bodies no longer exist in physical bodily form. I am not saying God is not going to transform our bodies, I believe he will, but I don't see this as entirely the redemption being talked about. The emphasis of salvation is on the state of our immortal soul in our glorified bodies in heaven.
Further, those who are in Christ who have died a physical death are in heaven as we speak, are they not.
Luke 23:43 writes:
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Just some things to think about and contemplate.
BTW, I know this is off-subject. I am willing to move this to another thread if desired.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 5:56 AM Faith has not replied

Inactive Administrator

Message 397 of 397 (721531)
03-08-2014 10:03 PM

Going into summary mode - See message 1 for the real topic theme
Or see AdminPhat's message 392 for a replay of message 1.

Or something like that.

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