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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
All you seem to be asserting is visual evidence. How do you even know what you are looking for?
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Meet me in chat and we can discuss this topic
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile, responding to ringo writes: Can you broaden my scope?We're talking about God existing. So far throughout history we've checked wherever we can when people have made a testable proposal of where God might exist. If we have checked all testable proposals, wouldn't you say that we have broadened our scope sufficiently to rationally say that "I know God does not exist?" Which brings up the question of whether or not we can test other peoples subjective experiences. An example of this context is being a member of a search party...a research team...or a group of explorers. The group does have advanced scientific detection instruments of course, (they are exploring a new planet) but they are also ordered to report what it is that their own senses perceive and to include this in a general group report. There are seven group members. The data is inconclusive regarding individual reports. Occasionally, some will report seeing or hearing something, but not everyone sees nor hears it. Occasionally, some may report feeling something...(inconclusive as to which sense was used...unless we allow for a sixth sense.) One fact remains. There are times when not every member of the team agrees on data. One likely place that believers would have for finding God would be in their own heart and soul. This is, of course, highly subjective. Another place would be in literature. Also subjective to the authors. Now...if one were to propose that the Bible was written by God through humanity, would the argument then evolve to the idea that God is subjective unto Himself?
Stile,responding to ringo writes: ...We know everything we know because it is part of our data set and we can make rational conclusions about the analysis.We are likely wrong about a great many things we think we know. But that's never stopped us from saying we know them before, and it won't in the future. But the only thing that will stop us from saying we know them... is actually finding more data to add to our data set. Irrational statements have no effect. In a sense, our discussions add slowly to the data. We are the members of that search team.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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The data for this conclusion is overwhelming. The question isn't whether or not the data is reliable or exists... the question is only whether or not you want to accept the conclusion that the evidence is pointing towards. I tend to go with jar on this one. How do you test for the supernatural? Some claim to have found God. You perhaps claim that "we" equates to the collective of humanity and that as a collective no objective evidence has ever been found.
quote:My question: Evidence of what? God? If I use you and your mind as part of my data I would conclude...upon examining you, that you honestly have no conviction, conceptualization, or belief concerning any God as defined by human literature being objectively real. If, however, I examine my Pastor, I see that he has a conviction,conceptualization, and belief...as well as anecdotal experience concerning at least the Christian concept of God. His behavior reflects it. Now...you may well argue that due to the fact that you could produce a given atheist who behaves similar to my Pastor---in that he cheerfully feeds the poor, comforts the sick, encourages the young and old alike...without conceptualizing God in any way(bypassing the Jesus thing...remember? Phat--->Jesus----good works vs Stile---->good works) the data thus suggests Jesus and/or God as unneeded and thus not a required conceptualization/belief. Perhaps you believe that God/Jesus would be welcomed by you should evidence/data become available. The dogma suggests, however, that humans by nature do not want God/Jesus. Comments? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : added italics Edited by Phat, : added quote
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Taq writes: I might add "something or someone. The real question is why even claim to have found something if you don't have the necessary observations to begin with? Spirituality is a subjective experience based on faith and belief. Some folks wont believe anything without evidence. Others base faith and/or belief on feeling. Let me give an example of my "feelings" The Pastor asked me to speak at church. I have scant experience in public speaking nor did I have anything prepared...moreover I'm usually nervous before such tasks. This time I prayed for Gods comfort. I realize that this is a vague term, and critics could quite correctly assert that prayer had nothing to do with the result. The fact is, however, I went before 100+ people and shared my detention center ministry experience with them...totally unafraid, totally focused on the audience, and at no loss for words. My biased belief says that God helped me. I have no evidence of such a likelihood except to say that my evidence was a combination of my feelings, my experience, and others who commented on how they had never heard me sound quite so together nor my usual shy and immature self.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
tangle writes:
Personally, I'm entirely happy to rule out any and all the Gods we've so far invented, but leave open, as an outside possibility, the chance that one day a thoroughly disinterested god will be found playing dominos with himself in another dimension.ringo writes: And to be quite honest, myself or any other believer attempting to convince you otherwise is employing confirmation bias. From a strictly neutral, lifeless, and emotionless critical scientific approach, you are correct. That's what I'm saying. We don't "know" that that outside possibility doesn't exist. What I for one attempt to share with you skeptics is my subjective experiences. Other than those, I got nothin.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If someone claimed that they prayed to Zeus and had the same experience, would you convert to worshipping Zeus? What about Vishnu? I don't think you would. So why should I be convinced by the same argument for a god I don't believe in? You dont have to believe in Him. All you have to do is believe in me.. Am I credible? Do you think I am truthful? Is my story plausible?
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Pressie,to Raphael writes: again, I would argue that although there is no evidence, there definitely is merit. I don't have any respect for the rest of your conclusions. Just wishful thinking and preaching with absolutely no empirical evidence or merit to it. Websters writes:
Full Definition of MERIT 1a obsolete : reward or punishment due b : the qualities or actions that constitute the basis of one's deserts c : a praiseworthy quality : virtue d : character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem; also : achievement 2 : spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits 3 a plural : the substance of a legal case apart from matters of jurisdiction, procedure, or form b : individual significance or justification I believe that we all have merit. Raphael brings up the point that unbelief is a minority view globally. Disagreement leads to communication...which is the reason that we endlessly discuss these issues. I actually look forward to engaging in dialogue with some of the names that I see at this forum. And of course we rarely agree---if we did, the whole game would be over. Pressie, while you can present yourself as an example of changing from one extreme to another, there are others who have changed from being non-religious to being a Protestant, for example. I also will agree that many religious people are illogical thinkers...and many non religious people are extremely logical and well read, though again, there are exceptions to this rule. And I disagree with Raphael that argumentativeness is fruitless. The very fact that we here at EvC have dialogue at all is...to me...fruitful. Its not about winning or losing a discussion so much as it is about finding two hundred new ways to say the same thing only better. At least for me....
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Raphael writes: No wonder you have been praying! haha I am super busy studying for final exams, but I thought I'd allow myself to be preoccupied for a bit by this discussion here Tell us what subjects you are being tested for.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This should be fun! I am going to cut and paste your schematic and fill it out as I would. Then we can proceed to test my sanity. OK here we go.....
quote:The result? In some questions, I agreed with you. In others, I did not. But agreement is not required. Thus...carry on the conversation...... Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Stile,replying to ringo writes: And this was a good topic, by the way. we actually have more information on fairies, Santa Claus and thought-controlling-CIA-bases-on-the-moon than we do for God.Therefore, that is my basis for saying "I know that God does not exist." The way that I gather information is largely through listening to others and/or reading what they write. One needs an informant in order to obtain information.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes:
Are you claiming that God exists somewhere else in the universe?ringo writes:
I'm claiming that you don't "know" He doesn't.Stile writes:
What rationally makes you think God will exist somewhere else in the universe?ringo writes: Not "will" exist, could exist. Phat writes:
quote: Rrhain writes: Why? That is, why isn't "here" good enough? Instead, all you need is a sufficiently complete definition of what you mean by "god." When your definition is so vague that it doesn't actually say anything, then can it even be said to exist? But with regard to the North Pole and Santa, it's called "magic." That's the same claim that every theist has ever claimed regarding their god as to why it can't be detected where it is claimed to exist. So if that's not acceptable with regard to Santa, why does it suddenly become legitimate for god? One notable attribute of believers in God vs Santa is that most of the God believers are otherwise rational adults.If challenged to support their beliefs, some would honestly admit that they could not. Others would attempt an elaborate apologetic defense, followed by an attitude of selective magic which enabled them to know and understand a person heretofore unknown to others. My fascination is with the latter group. They are, after all, not delusional. Why is it that they defend this belief in which they have so vehemently invested? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
stile writes: Though you must admit that while you can declare that you know that God does not exist and that some of us also know, you can not conclude that *we* know that God does not exist. And that's how I know God does not exist. Because you can't show that He does in a way that we can all review.You can only do it in a way that only you claim is "real" except that it is indistinguishable from imagination. And if that's all you have, then that doesn't count for knowing. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What the heck is a Straw God?
tangle writes: Is there any other form of god? Our imagination is limitless! And who are we to say that the collective imagination of humanity gets close to an archetype of the actual? Or at worst potential? One can argue that any God imagined or described is in fact made of straw, I suppose. One can also argue that the collective archetype is possibly real?Another way to describe it is to ask whose imagination we are talking about. In my belief, He imagined us long before we had evolved to the point of imagining Him. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And yet we were created in His imagination. When God imagines, He creates.
sez me.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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