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Author Topic:   What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 31 of 339 (721895)
03-13-2014 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by PaulK
03-13-2014 8:56 AM


... all it tells us is why Faith is so often wrong.
Are you sure that this is not your biases talking rather than just taking it as an "uncontroversial statement" ?
Seems to me that you are reading more into it than is there.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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 Message 29 by PaulK, posted 03-13-2014 8:56 AM PaulK has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 32 of 339 (721898)
03-13-2014 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by RAZD
03-13-2014 9:28 AM


quote:
Are you sure that this is not your biases talking rather than just taking it as an "uncontroversial statement" ?
Yes. I'll grant that I'm using background knowledge, but that's hardly an objection.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 339 (721905)
03-13-2014 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by RAZD
03-13-2014 9:24 AM


Finally, critical thinking alone is not sufficient to lead to acceptance of only valid things.
There is still the garbage in/garbage out problem. And also the problem with factors that are purely or almost purely subjective.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 03-13-2014 9:24 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by RAZD, posted 03-13-2014 12:02 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 36 by Taq, posted 03-13-2014 12:07 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 34 of 339 (721913)
03-13-2014 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
03-13-2014 10:19 AM


There is still the garbage in/garbage out problem. ...
Indeed GIGO is a common problem (hence it even has an acronym), even in scientific inquiry, however I don't see how this can "lead to acceptance of only valid things" without employing critical thinking to separate the good from the garbage.
... also the problem with factors that are purely or almost purely subjective.
It seems to me, that once we have exhausted the realms of things that can be tested we are basically left with opinion, and no matter how well informed that opinion is, it is still subjective; an educated guess is a subjective opinion.
I would think that this is where critical thinking would be most applicable, to be aware of and wary of personal opinions and biases.
Or do you have some method to separate the wheat from the chaff without critical thinking? Some kind of litmus test?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 03-13-2014 10:19 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 35 of 339 (721915)
03-13-2014 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
03-12-2014 9:44 PM


Of course I wasn't defining it, just stating what I knew to be contrary to the prevailing EvC opinion. There's no point in the likes of me trying to define critical thinking or anything else at this forum. Or saying anything at all for that matter.
I think we would all be curious as to how you determine what is true and what is not, and the processes/methods that you use. You could describe them in general terms without touching on specific topics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 03-12-2014 9:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 03-13-2014 3:02 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 36 of 339 (721916)
03-13-2014 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
03-13-2014 10:19 AM


There is still the garbage in/garbage out problem. And also the problem with factors that are purely or almost purely subjective.
There is GIGO, and there is the closely related "echo chamber". This is where you seek out opinions that match your own which can reinforce your own biases and prevent you from using critical thinking. We are all susceptible to this, so it helps to always be aware of it.

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Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 339 (721921)
03-13-2014 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by roxrkool
03-12-2014 9:44 PM


Why Walk Away?
roxrcool writes:
You want to believe what you have always believed and this is your default position. A safe position. Moving beyond what you want to believe is not something you are actively seeking, but you are curious and keep picking at it a tiny bit at a time.
Allow me to use an analogy of falling in love with a woman. One day you meet this woman. You really feel attracted to her and want to go deeper. Soon, you find that your love for her is not merely physical...you fear that you may have fallen for her. Your critical thinking skills jump into play, as they are your best defense against irrational decisions.
  • You consider her personality. You consider her family, and how you relate to them. You consider any annoying habits she may have. In your research, you find some problems about her, yet you are afraid to let her go and you pray (or hope) that she never lets you go. You want to believe that she is the right one for you. You even find, after a time, that you cant stand being away from her.
    With God (or faith in an established belief) a similar scenario can develop. You believe--one day--that you have met God. There is no physical evidence for this, of course, and if you are a good critical thinker you will ignore confirmation bias coming from others...but you find that,irrational as it may be, you talk to what appears to be nothing. Empty space. Nobody in the room. You have fallen for this. You have a choice whether to break away or become more and more involved. Though curious, you get enough from your belief (what some would call a delusion) that you continue in it. For you it is not an it. It is God.----this is my description of what a believer may go through. As for me personally, that story is a bit longer and I may share it (My Belief Statement) sometime.

  • This message is a reply to:
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    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 9973
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 5.7


    Message 38 of 339 (721922)
    03-13-2014 12:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
    03-13-2014 12:51 PM


    Re: Why Walk Away?
    With God (or faith in an established belief) a similar scenario can develop. You believe--one day--that you have met God.
    That is where your analogy falls apart. With the girlfriend, you can demonstrate that she actually exists. . . or at least I hope so.
    If you were telling your friends that you had fallen in love with a woman that no one but you could see, then we would rightly question your critical thinking skills.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by Phat, posted 03-13-2014 12:51 PM Phat has replied

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     Message 39 by Phat, posted 03-13-2014 1:06 PM Taq has replied
     Message 40 by ringo, posted 03-13-2014 1:11 PM Taq has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 39 of 339 (721925)
    03-13-2014 1:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
    03-13-2014 12:56 PM


    Re: Why Walk Away?
    What makes you think that I need evidence that God exists?
    CSI writes:
    In his classic Invitation to Sociology, Peter Berger (1963, 23) states, It can be said that the first wisdom of sociology is this-things are not what they seem. I would alter the wording slightly-things are not always entirely what they seem-and propose it as the first wisdom of critical thinking. The recognition that the world is often not what it seems is perhaps the key feature of the critical thinker’s worldview.
    Despite lack of evidence objectively, I had enough subjective confirmation to believe.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by Taq, posted 03-13-2014 12:56 PM Taq has replied

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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 40 of 339 (721928)
    03-13-2014 1:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
    03-13-2014 12:56 PM


    Re: Why Walk Away?
    Taq writes:
    If you were telling your friends that you had fallen in love with a woman that no one but you could see, then we would rightly question your critical thinking skills.
    When you're in love, critical thinking is pretty much out the window anyway. There are some situations where critical thinking just isn't very useful.
    (That probably applies equally to falling in love with God.)

    This message is a reply to:
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    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 9973
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 5.7


    (1)
    Message 41 of 339 (721929)
    03-13-2014 1:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
    03-13-2014 1:06 PM


    Re: Why Walk Away?
    What makes you think that I need evidence that God exists?
    Obviously, you don't need evidence in order to believe something. However, believing something without evidence does call your critical thinking skills into question.
    Despite lack of evidence objectively, I had enough subjective confirmation to believe.
    I think the underlying question in this thread is whether or not subjective experiences are a valid way to confirm anything.

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    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    Message 42 of 339 (721933)
    03-13-2014 2:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 34 by RAZD
    03-13-2014 12:02 PM


    Indeed GIGO is a common problem (hence it even has an acronym), even in scientific inquiry, however I don't see how this can "lead to acceptance of only valid things" without employing critical thinking to separate the good from the garbage.
    I suggest that it interfered with critical thinking. Despite your best efforts, you do not have the ability to reject all of the garbage and all of the diamonds.
    It seems to me, that once we have exhausted the realms of things that can be tested we are basically left with opinion, and no matter how well informed that opinion is, it is still subjective; an educated guess is a subjective opinion.
    And a subjective opinion may be the best you can do and that result might still be wrong. So it interferes, sometimes fatally with critical thinking reaching only valid results.

    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
    I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
    If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by RAZD, posted 03-13-2014 12:02 PM RAZD has replied

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    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 43 of 339 (721935)
    03-13-2014 3:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Taq
    03-13-2014 12:05 PM


    That would take me back to the two most intense years of my life during which I was reading voraciously about all the religions and occultic practices. That led me into "spiritual" experiences of a very intense sort, some beautiful, some scary. I'd been a self proclaimed atheist, suddenly found some Hindu gurus' descriptions of their experiences of "God" very convincing. Went on a quest to learn about God. Long story short it was Christianity and Christianity alone that explained all that and showed me the way out of it. Not sure I'm up to trying to analyze all that for you.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Taq, posted 03-13-2014 12:05 PM Taq has replied

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     Message 44 by Taq, posted 03-13-2014 4:51 PM Faith has replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 9973
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 5.7


    Message 44 of 339 (721942)
    03-13-2014 4:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
    03-13-2014 3:02 PM


    Not sure I'm up to trying to analyze all that for you.
    That's fine. I really don't need to know your personal story.
    What I am more interested in is the basic way you view the world. How do you determine the difference between an accurate statement and an inaccurate statement? What methods and practices do you use to determine the difference between true and false?
    IOW, what does critical thinking mean to you?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by Faith, posted 03-13-2014 3:02 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by Faith, posted 03-13-2014 5:03 PM Taq has replied

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    (1)
    Message 45 of 339 (721943)
    03-13-2014 5:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 44 by Taq
    03-13-2014 4:51 PM


    I could get interested in such a question but not in an environment where I'm surrounded by people who've decided a priori that I'm stupid because I'm a creationist and believe in God.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by Taq, posted 03-13-2014 4:51 PM Taq has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 46 by Taq, posted 03-13-2014 5:57 PM Faith has not replied
     Message 47 by anglagard, posted 03-13-2014 11:57 PM Faith has replied

      
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