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Author Topic:   What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 339 (722004)
03-14-2014 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
03-14-2014 12:36 PM


Re: Psychosis and Hallucinations
Faith writes:
Years after the experiences I described I was visiting a charismatic Christian commune and woke up in the middle of the night with the sensation of an evil presence gripping my throat and trying to strangle me. I thought the words "I'm covered by the blood of Jesus" and it went away.
Since paralyzed wakefulness involves the sub-conscious, the subjects underlying beliefs will factor large in how they respond to the paralysis. As a new believer, I would have immediately concluded that a demon had me in its grip. I also would have concluded that Jesus set me free. I still believe these things to be true, but I wont argue against critically allowing for other possibilities. (Praise Jesus!)

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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 77 of 339 (722005)
03-14-2014 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
03-14-2014 12:25 PM


Re: Subjective Experiences
Phat writes:
One mans validity is another mans delusion.
How do we arrive at consensus on what is valid?
You answered your own question: Consensus decides what is valid. Consensus is a requirement for objectivity (although consensus doesn't necessarily indicate objectivity). If there was any consensus about a delusion it wouldn't be a delusion.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 339 (722006)
03-14-2014 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
03-14-2014 12:33 PM


Its a broad term, it covers a lot of different stuff. Not all of them make you an abnormal person.
quote:
Normal states[edit]
Brief hallucinations are not uncommon in those without any psychiatric disease. Causes or triggers include[9]
Falling asleep and waking: hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations, which are entirely normal[11]
Bereavement, in which hallucinations of a deceased loved one are common[9]
Severe sleep deprivation[12][13][14]
Sensory deprivation and sensory impairment
caffeine intoxication
extremely stressful event
Subtypes[edit]
Subtypes of psychosis include:
Menstrual psychosis, including circa-mensual (approximately monthly) periodicity, in rhythm with the menstrual cycle.
Postpartum psychosis, occurring recently after childbirth
Monothematic delusions
Myxedematous psychosis
Occupational psychosis
Stimulant psychosis
Tardive psychosis
Shared psychosis
Cycloid psychosis
Cycloid psychosis[edit]
Cycloid psychosis is psychosis that progresses from normal to full-blown usually within a few hours, not related to drug intake or brain injury.[15] In addition, diagnostic criteria include at least four of the following symptoms:[15]
Confusion
Mood-incongruent delusions
Hallucinations
Pan-anxiety, a severe anxiety not bound to particular situations or circumstances
Happiness or ecstasy of high degree
Motility disturbances of akinetic or hyperkinetic type
Concern with death
Mood swings to some degree, but less than what is needed for diagnosis of an affective disorders
Cycloid psychosis occurs in people of generally 15—50 years of age.[15]
Medical conditions[edit]
A very large number of medical conditions can cause psychosis, sometimes called secondary psychosis.[9] Examples include:
disorders causing delirium (toxic psychosis), in which consciousness is disturbed
neurodevelopmental disorders and chromosomal abnormalities, including velocardiofacial syndrome
neurodegenerative disorders, such as Alzheimer's disease,[16] dementia with Lewy bodies,[17] and Parkinson's disease[18]
focal neurological disease, such as stroke, brain tumors,[19] multiple sclerosis,[20] and some forms of epilepsy
malignancy (typically via masses in the brain, paraneoplastic syndromes, or drugs used to treat cancer)
infectious and postinfectious syndromes, including infections causing delirium, viral encephalitis, HIV,[21] malaria,[22] Lyme disease,[23][24][25] syphilis[26][27]
endocrine disease, such as hypothyroidism, hyperthyroidism, adrenal failure, Cushing's syndrome, hypoparathyroidism and hyperparathyroidism; sex hormones also affect psychotic symptoms and sometimes childbirth can provoke psychosis, termed puerperal psychosis
inborn errors of metabolism, such as Succinic semialdehyde dehydrogenase deficiency, porphyria and metachromatic leukodystrophy[28][29][30]
nutritional deficiency, such as vitamin B12 deficiency[31][32]
other acquired metabolic disorders, including electrolyte disturbances such as hypocalcemia,[33] hypernatremia,[34] hyponatremia,[35] hypokalemia,[36] hypomagnesemia,[37] hypermagnesemia,[38] hypercalcemia,[39] and hypophosphatemia,[40] but also hypoglycemia,[41] hypoxia, and failure of the liver or kidneys
autoimmune and related disorders, such as systemic lupus erythematosus (lupus, SLE),[42] sarcoidosis,[43] Hashimoto's encephalopathy,[44][45][46] and anti-NMDA-receptor encephalitis[47]
poisoning, by therapeutic drugs (see below), recreational drugs (see below), and a range of plants, fungi, metals, organic compounds, and a few animal toxins[9]
some sleep disorders, including hallucinations in narcolepsy (in which REM sleep intrudes into wakefulness)[9]
Psychosis can even be caused by familiar ailments such as flu[48][49] or mumps.[50]
Psychosis - Wikipedia

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 79 of 339 (722007)
03-14-2014 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
03-14-2014 12:33 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
Seems to me the confirmation bias is very often on the side of the debunkers. They DON'T want to believe in the reality of these things, they NEED to believe that the mind does it all, that it's a hallucination or a psychosis, it freaks them out to think things aren't quite as "science" tells them they are. The clue is the kneejerk certainty. It takes some real critical thought to sort some of this stuff out.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 03-14-2014 1:09 PM Faith has replied
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2014 1:15 PM Faith has replied
 Message 86 by Taq, posted 03-14-2014 1:33 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 339 (722008)
03-14-2014 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
03-14-2014 12:36 PM


Re: Psychosis or Spiritual War?
Phat writes:
the definition of belief as a psychosis.
I don't think anybody is seriously defining belief as a psychosis. There may well be a correlation between the two though.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 339 (722009)
03-14-2014 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by RAZD
03-12-2014 6:56 PM


Source vs Content
RAZD writes:
Indeed the definition of delusion is believing something in spite of contradictory information.
An example is believing that the earth is younger than 10 or 12 thousand years old -- there is massive evidence that contradicts this belief.
I believe that the earth is far older. My friends who are Pastors usually disagree with me...but since we cannot find consensus, we dont argue about it very much. They have faith stemming from the Bible (as taught literally) whereas my faith sprung from subjective experiences...I think.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 82 of 339 (722011)
03-14-2014 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
03-14-2014 12:46 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
Faith writes:
The clue is the kneejerk certainty.
Critical thinking is the exact opposite of kneejerk certainty. Critical thinking means deliberately deciding what every move of your knee should be - and after you've moved it wondering if you got it wrong.
If you could ever admit that the Bible might be wrong, your knee might not jerk so much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 12:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 1:19 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 83 of 339 (722012)
03-14-2014 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
03-14-2014 12:46 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
Faith writes:
Seems to me the confirmation bias is very often on the side of the debunkers. They DON'T want to believe in the reality of these things, they NEED to believe that the mind does it all, that it's a hallucination or a psychosis, it freaks them out to think things aren't quite as "science" tells them they are. The clue is the kneejerk certainty. It takes some real critical thought to sort some of this stuff out.
You're quite right, we don't want to believe these things - we want them evidenced and then we can accept them.
You have absolutely no evidence that the stuff you're talking about is anything other than psychological. And I have to say, the more you talk about it, the more convinced I am.
I worked in a mental hospital for a few months, once you've seen that, you know what a mess a brain disorder can make of what you think is reality. (I met two Jesus Christs there btw)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 1:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 339 (722013)
03-14-2014 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
03-14-2014 1:09 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
Critical thinking is the exact opposite of kneejerk certainty.
Which was my point. That it's the debunkers like you who have the kneejerk certainty.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 85 of 339 (722014)
03-14-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tangle
03-14-2014 1:15 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
Sounds to me like you have a serious inability to think critically, meaning an inability to distinguish between mental illness and experiences of real spirits. People believing they are Jesus Christ is a mental illness. Nothing anyone has described here is in such a category. And yes you believe what you WANT to believe, regardless of the actual evidence.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Taq, posted 03-14-2014 1:35 PM Faith has replied
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2014 2:05 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 86 of 339 (722016)
03-14-2014 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
03-14-2014 12:46 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
Seems to me the confirmation bias is very often on the side of the debunkers. They DON'T want to believe in the reality of these things, they NEED to believe that the mind does it all, that it's a hallucination or a psychosis, it freaks them out to think things aren't quite as "science" tells them they are. The clue is the kneejerk certainty. It takes some real critical thought to sort some of this stuff out.
Our whole point is that you only show us belief. You never show us evidence, logic, reasoning, or critical thinking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 12:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 1:52 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 87 of 339 (722017)
03-14-2014 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
03-14-2014 1:21 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
Sounds to me like you have a serious inability to think critically, meaning an inability to distinguish between mental illness and experiences of real spirits.
So how do you use critical thinking to differentiate between mental illness and real spirits? Show us how it is done. What tests do you use? How do you know those tests are accurate?
And yes you believe what you WANT to believe, regardless of the actual evidence.
That is called psychological projection. You are projecting your own dogmatism onto others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 1:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 1:55 PM Taq has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 88 of 339 (722019)
03-14-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
03-13-2014 2:32 PM


I suggest that it interfered with critical thinking. Despite your best efforts, you do not have the ability to reject all of the garbage and all of the diamonds.
Which is why you are skeptical even when tested, looking to hone or tune the result/s with further testing.
And a subjective opinion may be the best you can do and that result might still be wrong. So it interferes, sometimes fatally with critical thinking reaching only valid results.
Which is why you are skeptical even when tested, looking to hone or tune the result/s with further testing.
Keeping an open mind you can (and most likely necessarily do) consider this to be the best approximation to {reality} you can reasonably obtain at this time, yet it is subject to change.
The interference imho comes not so much from considering them, but in resistance to revision when more information suggests it.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 89 of 339 (722023)
03-14-2014 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Taq
03-14-2014 1:33 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
And you are wrong about that, and unable to recognize how your own opinions rest on bias and belief.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 90 of 339 (722024)
03-14-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Taq
03-14-2014 1:35 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
I guess we could tit for tat each other forever -- no you're the one projecting, no you are -- but what would be the point?. I believe the criteria for differentiating the demonic from the mental illness is quite clear in the descriptions themselves, and your inability to see it doesn't bode well for any effort I might put into trying to demonstrate it beyond that.
(I might suggest, however, that the demonic could very easily be involved in any kind of delusion, such as that one is Jesus Christ.)
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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