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Author Topic:   What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 121 of 339 (722117)
03-15-2014 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
03-15-2014 6:29 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
See above.
That leaves me uncertain as to what your answer would be if you gave one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 6:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 122 of 339 (722118)
03-15-2014 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
03-15-2014 6:27 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
I didn't say stories prove something is real. They may or may not be evidence of something real.
If all you've got is people's accounts then you have to apply your Critical Thinking to those accounts to decide whether you find them credible or not. That could involve extensive interviews, comparisons with other accounts and so on.
What's interesting about the reactions here to accounts of phenomena they haven't themselves witnessed is that they discount them out of hand on the basis of what they're ABOUT, not any actual evidence. Pure prejudice. Yet they seem to think this amounts to Critical Thinking. Seems to me it's a perfect case of NOT thinking.
Where do you draw the line? It's different in every case I suppose, depending on the credibility of the person who had the experience, others who had the same or similar experience, the details given, etc. etc. etc. Not just what was described that you would dismiss because you never experienced it. That way you'll never learn anything about things you know nothing about from your own experience.
Well i used to be really in to investigations in to the "spirit relm", if seen allot of so called evidence of ghosts and spirits nothing to convince me though. The best protection against spirits is to be a sceptic , no really theirs a "haunted" castle/hotel not fare from me i stayed many times never saw anything, but my mind wasn't plagued by fear that made every gust of wind in to a ghost like other people.
what has you convinced of spirits, just the stories, or did you have your own private hallucination.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 6:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 8:00 PM frako has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 123 of 339 (722119)
03-15-2014 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Faith
03-15-2014 6:57 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
But if you get a lot of people insisting on the reality of experiences that are independent but very similar, it might be reasonable to consider they aren't merely hallucinating.
in 1938 there was a Halloween radio broadcast based on the novel war of the worlds about 1,2 million people really thought the world was attacked and they reported the smell of poison gas, and lightning flashes in the distance.
Its the same with ghosts and other similar phenomena, people at one time or another hear a story believe it to be real, and at one point when their scared or in other intense emotional states the brain draws parallels with the story, and makes them see and hear things that are not there.
Houdini said to his wife if there is an afterlife ill come back and tell you, to test the spiritualist that is saying is talking to me il give you a "password" he should say to you. so fare no one passed his test.
the james randy foundation was offering 1 000 000$ to any one that claims to have spiritual powers of any kind and passes his test's
They gave up because most people dint want to go on the show after they found out how easily he will debunk them. But some idiots still tryed.
So you see "supernatural" claims are being tested all the time ther just aint any that have passed the test.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 6:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 339 (722120)
03-15-2014 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by frako
03-15-2014 7:23 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
I reported my experience earlier in the thread, as well as the experiences of others who told me about them. They all happened in the context of religious practices (Zen for one, Rajneesh meditation for another) or in my case intense seeking through reading about such things. Mine was a threatening apparition, however, angry, wanting to kill me. These aren't "ghosts," in fact I don't believe in ghosts if you mean spirits of human beings. There may be demon impersonations of people, however. That's what I believe the "hauntings" are, and most such apparitions for that matter. I think the appearances of the "Virgin Mary" to millions of Catholics are real, but that they are demon impersonations. I also happen to believe that because of all the people getting involved in Eastern type religious practices in America, that increased enormously in the 70s, that there are probably a lot more demons around since then than there used to be.
If there are real spirits then they have minds and wills and aren't going to just show up when you want them to, but when it suits them.
ABE: Other phenomena, such as "psychic" phenomena, is different and can be tested. But Randi should test the Yogis, not the average psychics.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by frako, posted 03-15-2014 7:23 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by frako, posted 03-15-2014 8:19 PM Faith has replied
 Message 126 by ramoss, posted 03-15-2014 8:21 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 137 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-17-2014 2:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 125 of 339 (722121)
03-15-2014 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
03-15-2014 8:00 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
I reported my experience earlier in the thread, as well as the experiences of others who told me about them. They all happened in the context of religious practices (Zen for one, Rajneesh meditation for another) or in my case intense seeking through reading about such things. Mine was a threatening apparition, however, angry, wanting to kill me.
And your sure you where not just seeing things, or dreaming, because?
I once had a hallucination as i was pushing my scooter home, i ran out of gas, i saw a bear 20 meeter's from me, it was dusk and he was a big and mean looking, i was scared as hell, now i knew if i ran and he chased me id be dead, so i hoped that if i turn on the lights and point them at him he would get scared and run, so i did. The huge bear turned out to be a cat.
Now as embarrassing as this story is its completely true in my mind it was a huge bear. Do you think you could have hallucinated the daemon?
These aren't "ghosts," in fact I don't believe in ghosts if you mean spirits of human beings. There may be demon impersonations of people, however. That's what I believe the "hauntings" are, and most such apparitions for that matter. I think the appearances of the "Virgin Mary" to millions of Catholics are real, but that they are demon impersonations. I also happen to believe that because of all the people getting involved in Eastern type religious practices in America, that increased enormously in the 70s, that there are probably a lot more demons around since then than there used to be.
So you don't believe the stories of these millions of Catholics that see the virgin marry that you have not seen but believe they see daemons posing as the virgin because of some sinister plot or whatever?? The evidence for it is naturally your superior understanding of the world and god?
If there are real spirits then they have minds and wills and aren't going to just show up when you want them to, but when it suits them.
Yea but the best protection against them is to be a sceptic they never show up for sceptics.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 8:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 8:28 PM frako has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 631 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 126 of 339 (722122)
03-15-2014 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
03-15-2014 8:00 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
None of the Yogis are dumb enough to get tested. They have their con job well in hand, and they know it's a con job.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 8:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 127 of 339 (722123)
03-15-2014 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by frako
03-15-2014 8:19 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
No I've had that kind of "hallucination" where I seem to see something in the twilight and that sort of thing. It may startle me but I can prove to myself it's not real. The apparition in my room was right there a few feet in front of me, real as real.
I should have said I don't believe in ghosts because of various indications in the Bible that human beings don't come back, and I think they are demonic also because of the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by frako, posted 03-15-2014 8:19 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 128 of 339 (722124)
03-15-2014 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
03-15-2014 8:28 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
No I've had that kind of "hallucination" where I seem to see something in the twilight and that sort of thing. It may startle me but I can prove to myself it's not real. The apparition in my room was right there a few feet in front of me, real as real.
Well the bear was real for me too, if i handent turned the lights towards him and see it was a cat, i would swear under oath it was a bear.
I do have a another example but it wasen't me who heard things, a friend of my girl stayed over once, and our conversation topic went to ghosts and such things. now when i drink a bit i can be evil so i told her that my house is haunted, the best part was my girl can be evil too she backed me up yea its haunted at night you can hear whispers in the walls and stuff like that. In the morning she said that she wanted to come and sleep in our bead a few times because she was so scared she heard whispers, people walking shadows moving the whole works i was pissing myself laughing, and she dont like me no more.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 8:28 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Omnivorous, posted 03-15-2014 9:00 PM frako has not replied
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 03-16-2014 11:44 PM frako has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3983
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 129 of 339 (722125)
03-15-2014 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by frako
03-15-2014 8:41 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
Perv writes:
In the morning she said that she wanted to come and sleep in our bead a few times
Perv.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by frako, posted 03-15-2014 8:41 PM frako has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3983
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 130 of 339 (722126)
03-15-2014 9:52 PM


The Skeptical Monkey Buys A Car
I've enjoyed every post (well most) in this thread. Many of them are subtle and closely reasoned; I respect the hell out of that, truly. But for me, the issue is simpler and older.
So I was a little monkey once, cute as the dickens ("You little devil," my mama would cry), and I remember that I could wail in distress when near my bigger cousin and mama would come and bite his ears, despite his hoots of innocence.
That was cool.
And I remember that everyone would pretend that only Big Bubba could hug the girls, but when he wasn't looking, they'd slip away with the Sneaky Huggers into the bush, and hush their cries with their soft furry hands.
Some of the guys would gather above the plain when the storms came. They'd watch the lightning, shake at the thunder: they all knew something different about what it meant. Some of them thought the thunder approvingly echoed baby monkey heads bashed against trees; some of them thought the thunder disapproved of bashing baby monkey heads.
I thought it was loud.
So, now many lost hairs later, I consider other monkeys' hoots a used car they want to sell. If it's so good, why do they want to sell it? Why does it need any selling at all? When a monkey puts forth the proposition that you can petition the lord in prayer, resulting in a used car that runs forever, I remember wailing my big cousin into a biting, and the baby monkeys and the storms, and I walk around the car and kick the tires because I know there's something wrong with it because there's something wrong with everything monkey.
Am I buying this car to cruise with just for fun and see how far it goes? Okay, I don't have to look too hard--I'll just drive it till it craps out and walk away laughing. But if I'm gonna drive this car to monkey business every day, if I have to trust it like I trust a 6" thick liana, then I wanna make sure some dirty monkey didn't put sawdust in the tranny; I wanna look at the odometer cable for tool marks; I wanna listen to the radio presets: what kinda tune suited the way that monkey treated this car? What color is the oil on the stick?
There are are a lot of monkeys selling a lot of used cars. There's something wrong with all of them. That's okay--there's something wrong with every car.
But I'm not buying the one where I hear muffled hoots in the bushes.
That's how this skeptical monkey approaches critical reasoning:
I'm 'spicious. And critical.
Edited by Omnivorous, : And it's my native language...

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 131 of 339 (722131)
03-16-2014 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
03-15-2014 1:26 PM


Re: God versus Long John Silver
Phat writes:
Too much critical thought prevents one from accepting anything.
So, is it more important to accept something (anything?) than to make an intelligent, informed (critical) decision? Is it better to take a bad position than to take no position at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 03-15-2014 1:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 03-16-2014 11:36 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 339 (722137)
03-16-2014 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by ringo
03-16-2014 2:11 PM


Re: God versus Long John Silver
not every decision can be examined critically before it is made. Some decisions only have an impact after they are made.
You cant realize that you should have turned right unless you turn left and notice that the terrain is unfamiliar. Sitting at the fork in the road gives no insight into the terrain ahead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ringo, posted 03-16-2014 2:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 03-17-2014 11:42 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 133 of 339 (722138)
03-16-2014 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by frako
03-15-2014 8:41 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
frako writes:
... now when i drink a bit i can be evil so i told her that my house is haunted, the best part was my girl can be evil too she backed me up yea its haunted at night you can hear whispers in the walls and stuff like that.
In the morning she said that she wanted to come and sleep in our bead a few times because she was so scared she heard whispers, people walking shadows moving the whole works i was pissing myself laughing, and she dont like me no more.
We all can be evil at times. There is a difference between an innocent joke and words that scare people or destroy their faith. We must ask ourselves what our motives are and also whether or not we are being honorable to others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by frako, posted 03-15-2014 8:41 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by frako, posted 03-17-2014 6:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 134 of 339 (722141)
03-17-2014 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
03-16-2014 11:44 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
We all can be evil at times. There is a difference between an innocent joke and words that scare people or destroy their faith. We must ask ourselves what our motives are and also whether or not we are being honorable to others.
LOL i couldn't help myself, when someone talks about ghosts and the like to me it sounds like:" and then the leprechaun came with his pot of gold riding a pink unicorn."
We are still friends though, last year we went to the beach together we stayed at her place.She still believes in ghosts and claims my house is haunted even though i told her it was a joke. And if i could do it all over again i would because it was one of the best laughs i had in my lifetime. I know its evil and wrong but still if you believe in fairytale's enough to be scared by them i will make sure you are

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 03-16-2014 11:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 135 of 339 (722155)
03-17-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
03-16-2014 11:36 PM


Re: God versus Long John Silver
Phat writes:
not every decision can be examined critically before it is made. Some decisions only have an impact after they are made.
You cant realize that you should have turned right unless you turn left and notice that the terrain is unfamiliar. Sitting at the fork in the road gives no insight into the terrain ahead.
That's fine, as long as you're willing to unmake those decisions if they turn out to be bad ones. If you make a wrong turn, you can keep telling yourself, "It's just over the next hill," or you can admit you were wrong.
It seems to me that religions put a lot of effort into making excuses for staying on the wrong road.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 03-16-2014 11:36 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Phat, posted 03-17-2014 2:05 PM ringo has replied

  
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