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Author Topic:   Is faith the answer to cognitive dissonance?
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 181 of 227 (722683)
03-24-2014 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
03-22-2014 4:56 PM


Re: The "honest skeptic" gets no praise from me: Scripture says Believe
Nobody has ever claimed that.
We have proven the eyewitness evidence is not very reliable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 03-22-2014 4:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 182 of 227 (722685)
03-24-2014 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
03-24-2014 9:14 AM


Re: Why Not?
Even if we start with the assumption that there is a God and that he created the universe, why do people give more weight to the words of the Bible, something that we know men had a hand in creating, than they do to the physical evidence contained in the universe that he created?
Surely the inerrant word of God is written in the rocks and stars and light. Why is it so critically important that the first attempt at describing God be correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:41 AM Dogmafood has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 183 of 227 (722686)
03-24-2014 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by saab93f
03-24-2014 9:19 AM


Re: Why Not?
The point I've made a few times here is that BECAUSE witness testimony is notoriously unreliable Levitical Law required two or three witnesses to validate a claim, and many more than two or three are given for the great events such as the miracles in the Bible.
The example of Moses I gave was in response to a challenge, it's not the norm. The parting of the Red Sea was experienced by millions, who are all eyewitnesses. If it hadn't happened surely we'd have heard reports from that time debunking it. If you don't believe in the basic honesty of the Biblical writers you might as well forget the whole thing of course, you'll never believe in anything God gave us to prove His reality and doings and that's your choice. All the books of the NT were written by eyewitnesses to the life and miracles of Jesus except Luke and Paul, who received knowledge of those things indirectly as the rest of us must. But if you don't like them or want to believe them nobody can make you.

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 Message 180 by saab93f, posted 03-24-2014 9:19 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 184 of 227 (722687)
03-24-2014 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
03-24-2014 9:32 AM


Re: Why Not?
quote:
The point I've made a few times here is that BECAUSE witness testimony is notoriously unreliable Levitical Law required two or three witnesses to validate a claim, and many more than two or three are given for the great events such as the miracles in the Bible.
Doesn't it require the testimony of multiple witnesses? How many of your miracles reach that standard?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 185 of 227 (722688)
03-24-2014 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Dogmafood
03-24-2014 9:27 AM


Re: Why Not?
Even if we start with the assumption that there is a God and that he created the universe, why do people give more weight to the words of the Bible, something that we know men had a hand in creating, than they do to the physical evidence contained in the universe that he created?
First, I'd never "start with the assumption that there is a God" I am saying that the Bible provides abundant evidence that there is a God, a lot of it eyewitness evidence to miracles.
Second, it's a strangely weak omnipotent God who couldn't guide human beings to an honest report of witnessed events.
Three a: the physical universe has to be interpreted too, there is nothing straightforward about what it presents to the human mind or it wouldn't have taken thousands of years before we learned anything of use about it.
Three b: Show me where the physical universe gives evidence of what the Bible reveals of the Creation and Fall or the Flood or God's plan of redemption or the need for salvation answered by the incarnation of God Himself to die for us?
Surely the inerrant word of God is written in the rocks and stars and light. Why is it so critically important that the first attempt at describing God be correct?
"First attempt?" I'm sure there were lots of writings about God before the Bible. We simply believe the Bible is the undistorted truth given by God Himself. And as I say above there are plenty of things about the nature of God and especially His provision for our salvation that we'd never get from any other source than the Bible, certainly not from the physical world, nor from any other "attempt at describing God."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Dogmafood, posted 03-24-2014 9:27 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Dogmafood, posted 03-25-2014 7:31 PM Faith has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 186 of 227 (722689)
03-24-2014 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
03-24-2014 9:32 AM


Re: Why Not?
You do have double standards. There is reliable historical evidence which at best casts a serious doubt to whether the Jews had spent time in Egypt in slavery and at least to the veracity of Exodus. There is not a single record of the Jews fleeing by the millions and wandering for 40 years in Sinai. Please do not start on Lennart Mller...
It has been proven without any doubt that the Bible tells untruths (ie. lies). Can a book on morality be given any value as such (as a compilation of myths and stories is another case) if it includes distortions and blatant lies in addition to horrific cases of unmorality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 187 of 227 (722690)
03-24-2014 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by saab93f
03-24-2014 9:43 AM


Re: Why Not?
You do have double standards. There is reliable historical evidence which at best casts a serious doubt to whether the Jews had spent time in Egypt in slavery and at least to the veracity of Exodus. There is not a single record of the Jews fleeing by the millions and wandering for 40 years in Sinai. Please do not start on Lennart Mller...
Double standard? No, I have the single standard that the Bible reveals the truth and the "reliable historical evidence" isn't reliable and the historians don't know what they are talking about. If you trust the historians that's your choice of course.
It has been proven without any doubt that the Bible tells untruths (ie. lies).
Oh hardly. "Without any doubt?" You just choose to believe the Bible debunkers, but they are the unreliable source.
Can a book on morality be given any value as such (as a compilation of myths and stories is another case) if it includes distortions and blatant lies in addition to horrific cases of unmorality?
There is nothing at all of lies in the Bible, and apart from the fact that the Bible is not primarily a "book on morality," there isn't a single immorality condoned in the Bible except what you choose to regard as that.
Usually what is called immorality is God's severe judgments for sin. Well, that's not fun but it's justice, not immorality, which God is incapable of. Oh the effrontery of the created being to judge God!
If you discredit your source you'll never learn anything, but so be it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 188 by ringo, posted 03-24-2014 11:57 AM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 188 of 227 (722706)
03-24-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Faith
03-24-2014 9:51 AM


Re: Why Not?
Faith writes:
... I have the single standard that the Bible reveals the truth...
So you have a circular standard. The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true and there's "tons" of evidence in the Bible that the Bible is reliable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 5:35 PM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 189 of 227 (722708)
03-24-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
03-24-2014 4:57 AM


Re: Why Not?
The principle of multiple witnesses is very clear in the Bible and clearly exemplified in its accounts. So much of Moses' accounts is testified by multiple others there is no reason to doubt it when he gives a singular testimony as well.
A witness is someone who was there, not just someone who says something. I can find millions of people who'll say that Smith found the golden plates, they're called Mormons. But that doesn't make them witnesses.
All stories I've read about Joseph Smith's finding of the golden tablets have him finding them alone.
You seem to be quibbling on the difference between saying they saw him find them, and saying that they saw them. Very well, eleven people, twelve if we count Smith himself, say the plates existed. Is it OK if I say they didn't, or should I believe?
As for character witnesses, if you believe the Pharisees and not Jesus, oh well. And if you believe Joseph Smith and not the many locals who had known him as a con man, oh well. That's your bad choice to make.
I'm just pointing out that it's not really dispositive, is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 4:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 190 of 227 (722709)
03-24-2014 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
03-24-2014 9:32 AM


Re: Why Not?
The example of Moses I gave was in response to a challenge, it's not the norm. The parting of the Red Sea was experienced by millions, who are all eyewitnesses.
It doesn't work like that, Faith. If I write on a bit of paper: "A million people saw a pig fly", how many eyewitnesses are there to the flight of the pig?
If it hadn't happened surely we'd have heard reports from that time debunking it.
Why are there no reports debunking the story of Perseus and Andromeda? If it was false, wouldn't there be plenty of Ethiopians who'd come forward to say so?
One reason might be that the myth was invented a long time after the facts that it purports to describe. That would explain why there's nothing contemporary with the myth either debunking or confirming it.

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 Message 183 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:32 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 191 of 227 (722753)
03-24-2014 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2014 12:20 PM


Re: Why Not?
Yeah, well since millions of people didn't write down what they witnessed, or we don't happen to have those millions of individual reports, we do have to believe those who wrote down that millions witnessed it. But of course feel free to believe that because millions didn't write it down they didn't witness anything, or they didn't exist or whatever makes your day, that's fine with me.
Of course if you think Moses, or the writer of the Torah, was lying about there being millions of people who experienced the parting of the Red Sea, then you don't have those millions of witnesses or the one witness either.
You're very adept at getting rid of the truth along with the myths. I would think that eventually there wouldn't be anything left you could trust at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2014 12:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 192 of 227 (722754)
03-24-2014 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by ringo
03-24-2014 11:57 AM


Re: Why Not?
Oh there's tons of evidence outside the Bible that the Bible is true too.
But you missed the context. Someone said I have a double standard so I answered no, my standard is single. It's always nice to get the context straight you know.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 03-24-2014 11:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 193 of 227 (722760)
03-24-2014 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
03-24-2014 5:32 PM


Re: Why Not?
Yeah, well since millions of people didn't write down what they witnessed, or we don't happen to have those millions of individual reports, we do have to believe those who wrote down that millions witnessed it.
No. we don't. If I write down "A million people saw a pig fly", we do not have to believe it.
You're very adept at getting rid of the truth along with the myths. I would think that eventually there wouldn't be anything left you could trust at all.
Well, I think I'm getting rid of the myths along with the other myths. If you want the stories of Christianity to be considered differently, to get special treatment, reason demands that this should be on the basis of some way in which they are actually different and special. The criterion you've proposed doesn't cut it. What I'd need is some reason to believe one set of far-fetched stories about magic, but not all the others. Otherwise, if it looks like a myth and it walks like a myth and it quacks like a myth ...
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 5:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 194 of 227 (722761)
03-24-2014 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
03-24-2014 5:32 PM


Re: Why Not?
quote:
Yeah, well since millions of people didn't write down what they witnessed, or we don't happen to have those millions of individual reports, we do have to believe those who wrote down that millions witnessed it.
Even if we had to believe it (and we don't) if we don't have their testimony we don't have their testimony. And that's what the Biblical standard demands, the TESTIMONY of multiple witnesses.
So why try to pretend that you can meet the Biblical standard for cases where you can't ? Even where you believe that you have the testimony of multiple witnesses the Bible doesn't do a lot to support that claim. So the idea that the Bible was written to meet that standard is frankly dishonest. It just isn't. And you ought to know that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 5:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 7:14 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 195 of 227 (722763)
03-24-2014 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by PaulK
03-24-2014 6:58 PM


Re: Why Not?
Then believe the w4riters of the books, duh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2014 6:58 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2014 7:24 PM Faith has replied

  
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