Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID

No more than refusing to bake a vegan only cake is or refusing to bake a cake for someone that isn't wearing a shirt or shoes. Refusing service isn't bigotry. Its refusing service.

Your genetics determine how you react to your environment. I have yet to see you discuss a single study, and how it supports your claims. Yes, that is what it means. You need to treat people equally, even people you think are icky. At what rates? Who were the study groups? What were the control groups?

Wrong.Don't know much about evolution and how it works do you?The gay uncle \ lesbian aunt share genes with their brothers and sisters, and so helping them survive means that those shared genes get passed from generation to generation, with some survival benefit from the extra pair of hands. Let's talk about wolf packs. There is a dominant male and a dominant female, and only the dominant male and dominant female breed.What is the benefit of the other wolves (male and female) in the pack? And why is this not similar to them being homosexual?Then look at herd animals: again you have a dominant male that mates with the females in his herd, other males are left out. What is the benefit of having more males? Surely those other males could be gay and not impact the herd.Bees have also been mentioned.If your argument were valid then none of these behavior patterns would be observed, there would only be monogamous paired species, so as this is not the case your argument is logically rather obviously invalid.

Worker bees are female and entirely sterile. They do not have children. They make up more than half of the bee population in a hive. Only a single female in an entire hive is producing children.Evolution has selected for this strategy on the part of bees. How do you explain this?Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

{Sarcasm}Wow, your cogent fact filled argument totally changed my world view!{/Sarcasm}I don't really have to try this because the billion dollar homosexual lobby pays producers to put homosexual scenes into every show and movie they can. So I get plenty of exposure and I have zero attraction to it. I've gotten to the point where I'll just fast forward through any episode or show that has it, as it just isn't entertaining to me, in the same way that a romantic comedy scene is not entertaining to someone watching a political thriller (who likes political thrillers, but does not like romantic comedies). I've already refuted this and exposure to a visual and auditory media is known to influence individuals. I personally don't want to be subjected to things I don't like and I certainly don't want to be influences subconsciously by them.How about you sit down and watch several hours of a Christian broadcast of the Brownsville revival and see what that does to you? No, ok. Nope, here let me link and post the relevant bits:from http://www.janetboynesministries.com/aboutjanet.html

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When God calls, He calls in love. My name is Janet Boynes and I have felt both God's calling and His love in my life.

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Life hasn't always been easy for me. I grew up in Norristown, Pennsylvania, a northern suburb of Philadelphia. My mother was strict and abusive to me and my six stepbrothers and stepsisters. Her beatings made me want to be strong, so that I wouldn't have to be weak and vulnerable to anyone. I began beating up my siblings and the kids at school, earning a reputation as a tomboy and a bully.

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When I was thirteen, the father of one of my sisters sexually abused me. I started doing drugs, smoking, and drinking alcohol to cope with all of the pain in my life, but everything I tried was empty. None of the drugs or alcohol could fill the void I knew I had in my life, so I kept searching.

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I graduated high school and began going to college. I loved basketball, but I wasn't able to play because of my drug addiction. Things finally got so bad that I switched schools and began attending a Christian college in Minneapolis. I attended Bible classes and became involved with a church in Minneapolis, finally thinking that I had found what I was looking for in Christianity. I even met the man who would eventually become my fianc.

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Things didn't go the way I had planned, however, and before I knew it, I was slipping away from God. Even though I was engaged to be married, I spent a lot of time with a female friend from work, so much time that my fianc began commenting on it. I told him that it was nothing, but I didn't realize what I was doing. One night I spent the night with my female friend and we became involved sexually.

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I told my fianc the next day and our wedding was called off until I could decide what it was that I wanted. I didn't go back to him, however. It was then that I started a journey that would last for many years and cause a lot of heartache for both myself and those around me.

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For fourteen years I lived the lesbian lifestyle, moving from one relationship to the next. My old habits came back as well and I struggled in and out of treatment, even getting in to trouble with the law. Throughout all of those years, I always knew that I would one day return to God, that He was calling me, but I wasn't ready to come back.

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Finally I met a woman at a grocery store who invited me to church. I went a few Sundays later and recommitted my life to Jesus Christ. Soon, all of my habits began falling away. It wasn't easy, but with the help of the Holy Spirit and with the support of those around me, I gave up drugs, alcohol, and smoking. I joined a women's Bible study and began to feel God calling me out of the homosexual lifestyle as well.

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I knew that I had to sever all ties with my old lifestyle in order to make a clean break from it, so I moved in with a family from our church. I stayed with them for about a year, and for the first time, I was able to see how a family was supposed to function. God's love worked through that family and began healing many of my old wounds caused by my childhood.

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It's been over eleven years since I was called out of the lesbian lifestyle, but I don't feel any regrets. God has bound up my broken heart and I am a new creation. I know that He has a wonderful plan for me, and I believe that one day, He will even bring a husband into my life. My story is proof that it doesn't matter how far you've gone, or what you've done, God still calls, and He calls in love.

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There are hundreds or even thousands of people that VOLUNTARILY choose to go to these therapies and are able to live normal heterosexual lifestyles afterwards. I understand that homosexuals come out vehemently against these things and claim they don't exist, but they do in fact exist. Which proves that it is a choice, not an easy choice, but a choice non the less.

Actually I just posted above this post in response to another poster where someone was able to change their orientation after years of homosexuality. So my point stands.The question stands also: Do you have any studies, surveys, or proof showing otherwise?

The delusion is strong in this one.

Strange how its not discrimination to tell someone they won't be served an all vegetable plate, or that they won't serve people without shirts or shoes, but that it is discrimination to tell someone that due to religious beliefs protected by law and constitution that they won't serve them. Its also seems that its bigotry to dislike something that is a choice. I personally don't like liver and think anyone that eats it is gross. I won't serve liver at my table and I ask that people leave liver at home when they come over. I guess I'm a liver bigot by the same standards they use for homosexuality.

Sexual orientation doesn't mean the same thing. Its very ambiguous. I'm looking for a word that encompasses the environmental impact as well as the chemical reinforcement that the brain does during climax repeatedly. Mental State, Mental Habit, Mental Addiction. Something like that.

That would be an anecdote, not a study. Do you know anything about science and how it works?

They'd have loved you at the Woolworth's Lunch Counter in Greensboro.

Actually those rights don't stop at the church door. They are covered by 'religious expression' which refusing to serve certain services (such as marriage related products or services) fall under. Your attempts to get under my skin by using controversial terminology won't work.To even be able to say my view is bigoted you have to prove that homosexuality is somehow natural and normal, that I am insulting or denigrating it (rather than just not like it), and that I am somehow persecuting it. I would no more force someone to watch a romantic comedy than I want to be forced to watch homosexual behavior in every tv show or movie I see.So far you haven't put forth a single fact to back up your viewpoint yet. Hopefully your next response will be a fact filled one that at least attempts to refute what I've posted. Otherwise I may have to ignore your posts in favor of those that actually want to be productive. The assumption here is that me or anyone else has tried to force others to stop liking homosexuality. I have nothing but love for homosexuals, however it has nothing to do with their homosexuality. It has to do with their humanity. Until I've been shown some reason to change my mind, I'm sticking with the idea that homosexuality is a deviation from a normal process caused by environmental factors backed up by chemical addiction in the brain (caused by climaxes being rewarded with positive endorphins)For the bigotry comments see above. Look at the rules for this very forum. They have a clause that says moderators can do anything they want whether or not you are violating the rules. Is that being bigoted?

This is all pure speculation. Is there any science that has identified a homosexual gene or allele? As far as I can tell, there have not been any so this whole line of reasoning is invalid. This second one is more valid, but still over millions of years it would have been weeded out if it were genetic. Since this is only observed in social species, it is more likely that homosexuality is a social mental state. Proven false in posts above. At best its a deviation from the norm brought on by environment and cemented in through chemical reward from repetition of climax endorphins. Unless someone has any evidence at all to show that this is not so? Actually I'm not. Since I'm saying that because it falls into the category of choice/environment it shouldn't. So this doesn't even come close to the naturalist fallacy. Environment != Natural. Much of a persons environment is contrived by other individuals and thus is not natural. Attacking the source rather than the facts presented? Ad hominem alert. Attack the facts and not the source.

Why? Is bigotry something that can only apply to natural characteristics? No, clearly that's not the case since someone can be bigoted against a religious group.But again, the interesting thing isn't the point you are trying to make, but what that point says about you. THIS is the real reason you are fighting so hard to prove that homosexuality isn't natural. You think for some reason that bigotry against gays is Ok as long as it's their choice. I'm sure there's something in your bible somewhere that says, "Love your neighbor are yourself, as long as they don't make any wrong choices."

Nothing you quoted says that she changed her orientation. If you like, I can find you about a zillion gay people pointing out the bleedin' obvious fact that they didn't choose to be gay. And straight people pointing out that they didn't choose to be straight.And, of course, plenty of gay people who've tried to change and failed. For example, John Paulk, formerly of Exodus International (remember them?): For the better part of 10 years? Given that amount of time, it seems that I have more chance of choosing to be heavyweight champion of the world. I really could exercise, bulk up, practice my left hook. But Paulk couldn't become straight with "strong determination", with "intensive therapy" and with the alleged support of an omnipotent God.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.