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Author | Topic: Could asteroids lead to the extinction of YECism ? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 1451 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Not true. The age of the earth was fairly well accepted in the 19th century, at least from the middle of the century onward. Even conservative Christians generally accepted the evidence for the age of the earth. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 1451 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Sorry, but on this you are completely wrong. Where did you get your bogus information? Can you support your claim? From about the mid-19th to mid-20th century, most conservative Christians accepted the geologic evidence for an old earth and incorporated it into a view known as the "Gap Theory". This view was popularized by Thomas Chalmers in the early 19th century, and became the de facto view of conservative Christians after C.I. Scofield incorporated it into his reference Bible in the early 20th century. As Bernard Ramm wrote in 1954 (see the wikipedia article referenced above): quote: Who held to an old earth in this period (mid-19th to mid-20th century)? Most of the conservative Christian scholars and Bible teachers, including most of the scholars who opposed the Tuebingen school and modernism. Here are a few of them: James Montgomery Boice (1938-2000). Pastor of Tenth Presbyterian Church, Philadelphia; chairman of International Council on Biblical Inerrancy. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 1451 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
First, I should clarify what I said previously. Not all of these men held to the Gap Theory; some held to the Day-Age view and at least one held to Theistic Evolution. C.H. Spurgeon's Gap Theory views were expressed in a number of places, including one which a leading YEC group tried to cover up, as documented on the page "Why Doesn't Answers in Genesis Tell You the Truth?"
Spurgeon also alluded to the Gap Theory in his "Treasury of David" commentary on Ps. 104:6:
Boice's views were expressed in a number of places. He went into great detail in his "Genesis: An Expositional Commentary" Vol 1 (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1982). In his chapter 6 on Theistic Evolution, he noted that it was defended by B.B. Warfield and James Orr. In chapter 7 on the Gap Theory, he noted that it was held by Custance, Chalmers, Pember, Pink, Rimmer, Scofield, DeHaan, and Barnhouse. Finally, in chapter 9, on Progressive Creationism (also known as the day-age view), Boice clarified that this was the view that he himself held:
The views of Hodge, Warfield, Machen, and Young are mentioned by the faculty of Westminster Theological Seminary in explaining why they do not take a narrow, dogmatic interpretation regarding the age of the earth, in the document "Westminster Theological Seminary and the Days of Creation"
Charles Hodge, in his "Systematic Theology", Chapter X, "Creation" made positive comments toward both the Gap Theory and the Day-Age Theory:
B.B. Warfield did not hold to the Gap Theory, but to a form of theistic evolution. This can be seen in his own writings, "Evolution, Science, and Scripture: Selected Writings" edited by Noll and Livingstone. (It is disputed, however, whether or not Warfield switched from theistic evolution to the day-age theory later in his life.) For more individuals, see the list of "Notable Christians Open to an Old-universe, Old-earth Perspective" Edited by kbertsche, : Fixed WTS link Edited by kbertsche, : Fixed beyondcreationscience link "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 1451 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
As Bernard Ramm said just before "The Genesis Flood" was published, the Gap Theory had become the de facto orthodox position for the most conservative and fundamental of Protestant Christians. This included those who were strongly anti-modernism and those who were strongly anti-evolution (e.g. Wm Jennings Bryan, Charles Hodge, Harry Rimmer). It even included John Whitcomb himself, until a hydrologist persuaded him to accept an unscientific theory from a Christian cult (SDA) and to rework it into a form acceptable to conservative Evangelicals. You'll find a lot more information on this history from Ron Numbers' book "The Creationists". Ron Numbers was raised an SDA so has the "inside story" on lots of the goings-on. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 1451 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Note that the date of Day 1 of Genesis is a different question from the age of the earth. Most of those who accepted the Gap Theory also held to literal Days in Genesis, and accepted something close to Ussher's dating. The original Scofield Reference Bible incorporated Ussher's dates, and literal days, yet affirmed an old earth and old universe. I.e. many who held to Ussher's chronology also held to an old earth. If this does not make sense to you, you need to read up on the Gap Theory. The Gap Theory views the Days of Genesis as a recent re-creation, not the original creation. It views the original creation as occurring eons earlier and evidenced in earth geology. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 1451 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Observation 1: the first thing created in Gen 1 is light (1:3), BUT a watery abyss (presumably over an earth of some sort) already existed (1:2). The creation of this water (and earth) is not described in Gen 1. When/how was it created? We aren't told. Observation 2: the Fall of Adam & Eve was NOT the first sin in God's creation. Satan must have fallen earlier, since he was the tempter of Adam & Eve. When did Satan fall? How did the earth get into the desolate, empty state described in Gen 1:2? It's not TOO big of a stretch to ascribe this state to a cosmic judgment in the wake of Satan's fall. (Though this is completely speculative; there is no biblical suggestion that Satan's fall would have affected the physical creation.). Hence, the basic idea of the Gap Theory: God created the entire universe long ago (Gen 1:1), it was put in a chaotic state when Satan fell (1:2), and then it was re-created recently, in six Days (1:3ff). This view has no problem fitting old geology; this geology is just a remnant of the original creation. As evidence mounted for old biology, it was postulated that the original creation included animals which were destroyed at Satan's fall and then re-created in Gen 1:3ff. Evidence for ancient hominids (e.g. Neanderthal) and evidence that homo sapiens was more than 6000 years old started to cause concern; some Gap Theorists proposed "pre-Adamic men", and others began to question their whole approach. Those who held the Gap Theory were pretty strongly anti-evolution. They certainly did not see evolution in the re-creation (Gen 1:3ff), and I don't think they saw it in the original creation, either. They DID see death of animals over millions of years in the original creation, but I'm not sure what they ascribed this to. Satan hadn't fallen yet, so why did animals die? (I'm not an expert on the Gap Theory; this would be a good question to research.) In the re-creation, they probably did not see animal death until Adam's fall, but I'm not sure that they all viewed it this way. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 1451 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined:
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More accurately, it's some interpretations of the Bible that are wrong, just as in Galileo's day his opponents wrongly interpreted the Bible to teach geocentrism. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 1451 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
EXACTLY! The Bible is not trying to teach ANY particular "shape" for the universe; it's not concerned about the shape of the universe. I believe the same is true for the age of the universe. The Bible is not trying to teach ANY particular timetable for creation. The Bible is concerned about WHO created the universe and WHY, not WHEN or HOW. (Note: Genesis does appear to explain "how" God created the universe, but this is a "how" in theological terms, which addresses more the "why" and the "who". It is not a "how" in modern scientific, mechanistic terms.) "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 1451 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
No, my statement doesn't imply this. These scenarios do not try to derive a timetable for creation from the Bible. They get their timetables from modern science. These scenarios (as well as the "Framework", "Days of proclamation", and "Ancient near eastern cosmology" views) are useful in trying to think through the issues and in trying to see how the biblical account can be consistent with modern science. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 1451 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Yes, conservation of mass-energy is very basic physics.
We seem to agree that our universe had a beginning. But I don't follow where you are going from here. Are you suggesting that the mass-energy that makes up our universe did NOT have a beginning, that it was eternal? If so, how do you reconcile this with our universe having a beginning? Or are you using conservation of mass-energy to reject the Big Bang? "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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