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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6639
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 226 of 1309 (723242)
03-28-2014 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Larni
03-27-2014 1:55 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Where on Earth did you get this idea?

Just something I read in a book somewhere once. The book must have been wrong.

The source of all our knowledge about god's character (the Bible) tells us He wants the gays all dead.

That was the jewish side of the book where stoning, killing and bloody death where pretty much the answers to everything. The other side seemed to be more, shall we say, enlightened. Again, I guess the book was wrong.

Your point about xians now living in a world where their preferences are kowtowed to being over must really bother them.

What seems to bother them most is that instead of just burning you like they want they now have to go through the long hard slog of getting bills through a legislature. And even then the outcome is not as satisfying as a good fire.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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lokiare
Member (Idle past 2885 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 227 of 1309 (723287)
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


First studies show no linkage from the xq28 alleles:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10213693

quote:
Several lines of evidence have implicated genetic factors in homosexuality. The most compelling observation has been the report of genetic linkage of male homosexuality to microsatellite markers on the X chromosome. This observation warranted further study and confirmation. Sharing of alleles at position Xq28 was studied in 52 gay male sibling pairs from Canadian families. Four markers at Xq28 were analyzed (DXS1113, BGN, Factor 8, and DXS1108). Allele and haplotype sharing for these markers was not increased over expectation. These results do not support an X-linked gene underlying male homosexuality.

Older Siblings are more likely to become homosexual (not a genetic trait):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24651045

quote:
In adult male samples, homosexuality is associated with a preponderance of older brothers (i.e., the fraternal birth order effect). In several studies comparing gender dysphoric youth, who are likely to be homosexual in adulthood, to clinical or non-clinical control groups, the findings have been consistent with the fraternal birth order effect in males; however, less is known about unique sibship characteristics of gender dysphoric females. The current study investigated birth order and sibling sex ratio in a large sample of children and adolescents referred to the same Gender Identity Service (N = 768). Probands were classified as heterosexual males, homosexual males, or homosexual females based on clinical diagnostic information. Groups differed significantly in age and sibship size, and homosexual females were significantly more likely to be only children. Subsequent analyses controlled for age and for sibship size. Compared to heterosexual males, homosexual males had a significant preponderance of older brothers and homosexual females had a significant preponderance of older sisters. Similarly, the older sibling sex ratio of homosexual males showed a significant excess of brothers whereas that of homosexual females showed a significant excess of sisters. Like previous studies of gender dysphoric youth and adults, these findings were consistent with the fraternal birth order effect. In addition, the greater frequency of only children and elevated numbers of older sisters among the homosexual female group adds to a small literature on sibship characteristics of potential relevance to the development of gender identity and sexual orientation in females.

Here they suggest that the birth month combined with a birth defect could cause female homosexuality:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24612972

quote:
Based on pre-mid-20th-century data, the same photoperiod-related birth seasonality previously observed in schizophrenia was also recently found in neural-tube defects and in extreme left-handedness among professional baseball players. This led to a hypothesis implicating maternal melatonin and other mediators of sunlight actions capable of affecting 4th-embryonic-week developments including neural-tube closure and left-right differentiation of the brain. Here, new studies of baseball players suggest that the same sunlight actions could also affect testosterone-dependent male-female differentiation in the 4-month-old fetus. Independently of hand-preferences, baseball players (n=6829), and particularly the stronger hitters among them, showed a unique birth seasonality with an excess around early-November and an equally significant deficit 6 months later around early-May. In two smaller studies, north-American and other northern-hemisphere born lesbians showed the same strong-hitter birth seasonality while gay men showed the opposite seasonality. The sexual dimorphism-critical 4th-fetal-month testosterone surge coincides with the summer-solstice in early-November births and the winter-solstice in early-May births. These coincidences are discussed and a "melatonin mechanism" is proposed based on evidence that in seasonal breeders maternal melatonin imparts "photoperiodic history" to the newborn by direct inhibition of fetal testicular testosterone synthesis. The present effects could represent a vestige of this same phenomenon in man.

This article proposes making a new definition of 'mental disorder' and is deemed a failure if it somehow includes homosexuality, despite homosexuality being removed from the 'mental disorder' list for political rather than scientific reasons. This is known as the "Suppressed Correlative" Fallacy. Rather than carefully defining what a 'mental disorder' is and seeing what falls under that category, they instead use a faulty test to see if they've arrived at the definition. Excluding the ability to define homosexuality as a 'mental disorder' regardless if it is one or not.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24509359

quote:
Extensive and diverse conceptual work towards developing a definition of 'mental disorder' was motivated by the declassification of homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in 1973. This highly politicised event was understood as a call for psychiatry to provide assurances against further misclassification on the basis of discrimination or socio-political deviance. Today, if a definition of mental disorder fails to exclude homosexuality, then it fails to provide this safeguard against potential abuses and therefore fails to do an important part of the work it was intended to do. We argue that fact-based definitions of mental disorder, relying on scientific theory, fail to offer a robust definition of mental disorder that excludes homosexuality. Definitions of mental disorder based on values do not fare better: these definitions are silent on questions about the diagnostic status of individuals in oppressive societies and over-inclusive of mental or behavioural states that happen to be negatively valued in the individual's social context. We consider the latest definition proposed for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual-5 (DSM-5) in light of these observations. We argue that definition fails to improve on these earlier deficiencies. Its inclusion in the manual may offer false reassurance against repetition of past misclassifications. We conclude with a provocation that if candidate definitions of mental disorder are unable to exclude homosexuality, it might perhaps be preferable not to attempt a definition at all.

This study was done relatively recently and found like many studies before it that there is a much higher chance of a person becoming homosexual based on parenting, and sexual abuse or first sexual experience during adolescence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24507228

quote:
OBJECTIVE:

To explore the relevant factors of the causes of sexual orientations of gay.
METHOD:

From March to June 2013, 350 gays were recruited from one music bar and three bath centers where gays frequently visited in Changsha city, by proportional stratified sampling method. Meanwhile, another 332 males who identify themselves as non-homosexuality were also recruited considering the composition of ages, gender and educational background. Questionnaire survey was conducted to all the subjects, with 300 effective ones reclaimed. The questionnaire included the general demographic information, traits of character, the condition of foster in childhood and information of family members. The differences between the gays and non-homosexuality groups were analyzed to explore the causes of the sexual orientations of gays.
RESULTS:

There were statistical significant differences between gays and non- homosexuality group on following indexes (χ(2) was 59.63, 5.90, 16.01, 84.99, 161.57, 77.77, 112.32, 190.84, 30.10 respectively, all of P < 0.05) :had a tender father and an imperious mother, were physically weak, not agile, physically inactive, attentive to details, highly conservative, not adventurous, and radical in childhood, were raised as girls before the age of 18, liked to dress as girls before the age of 18, don't liked to play toy knives and toy guns before the age of 18, suffered from sexual abuse before the age of 18 (e.g. forced to expose private parts or forced to have sex) by adults, had read or watched books or films about homosexual and experienced sexual pleasure from that before the age of 18. The rate of gays on these indexes was separately 62.3% (187/300), 57.7% (173/300) , 62.3% (187/300) , 63.0% (189/300), 67.3% (202/300) , 62.7% (189/300), 68.0% (204/300), 65.0% (195/300) and the rate on these indexes of non-homosexuality group was separately 21.3% (64/300), 28.0% (84/300) , 25.0% (75/300) , 12.7% (38/300), 31.3% (94/300), 17.7% (53/300) , 12.7% (38/300), 42.7% (128/300) . The rate of gays on these factors:the youngest boy in family, had the father or twin brothers who were homosexual or self identified as gay was 62.7% (188/300), 56.0% (168/300) and 62.0% (18/29) respectively; and the rate was 40.7% (122/300), 4.0% (12/300) and 20.0% (2/10), respectively among non-homosexuality group. The difference showed statistical significance (χ(2) was 34.52, 193.14, 5.27 respectively, all of P < 0.05).
CONCLUSION:

The correlative factor of sexual orientation of gays maybe was family relationship, tend and education since childhood, psychological characteristics, sexual experience during puberty.


Mental depression in homosexual males highest rated cause by relationships:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24287169

quote:
BACKGROUND:

Gay men are at higher risk of suffering from a variety of psychiatric disorders, yet the mental health literacy of this population has remained largely unknown.
METHODS:

In 2007 and 2011, surveys were conducted among gay men in Geneva, Switzerland, recruited by probability-based time-space sampling. Based on a case vignette of a man with major depression, respondents were asked a series of questions about labelling, perceived risk, and help-seeking beliefs. Men meeting caseness for major depression were asked open questions about perceived causes and additional help-seeking/self-help.
RESULTS:

Among the 762 respondents, 14.7% met diagnostic criteria for major depression (MDD) in the past 12 months. The vignette was labelled depression by 44.1% of the entire sample, and 61.9% of the men with MDD. Discrimination (33.2%), acceptance or rejection by others (21.4%), and loneliness (24.9%) were the most common reasons given for greater susceptibility among gay men, yet men with MDD reported problems with love/relationship (32.5%) and work (28.9%) as the most common perceived causes of recent depression, and problems with love/relationship (21.9%), accepting one's homosexuality (21.1%), and family (20.2%) at initial outset. The highest proportions of gay men rated non-medical options such as a close friend (91.6%), relaxation exercises or meditation (84.4%), and physical activity (83.5%) as being helpful for the depression vignette.
LIMITATIONS:

No probes used for open questions, and findings generalizable only to gay men in the sampling scheme.
CONCLUSIONS:

There are many commonalities in labelling, perceived causes, and help-seeking with general populations, but also numerous specificities in mental health literacy and experience among gay men.


Half of all new cases of HIV are from homosexual men:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24264500

quote:
At the end of 2009, approximately 1.1 million persons in the United States were living with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection, with approximately 50,000 new infections annually. The prevalence of HIV continues to be greatest among gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM), who comprised approximately half of all persons with new infections in 2009. Disparities also exist among racial/ethnic minority populations, with blacks/African Americans and Hispanics/Latinos accounting for approximately half of all new infections and deaths among persons who received an HIV diagnosis in 2009. Improving survival of persons with HIV and reducing transmission involve a continuum of services that includes diagnosis, linkage to and retention in HIV medical care, and ongoing HIV prevention interventions.

This study shows the ability of homosexuals through therapy to change orientation:

https://www.stolaf.edu/people/huff/classes/Psych130S2012/LabDocuments/Spitzer.pdf

quote:
Most participants noted more than one of the 11 rea-
sons asked about. The most commonly reported reasons
were that the individual did not find life as a gay man
or lesbian emotionally satisfying (males, 85%; females,
70%;¬2(1)D4:5,p<:05), conflict between their same
sex feelings and behavior and the tenets of their religion
(79%), and desire to get married or stay married (males,
67%; females, 35%;¬2(1)D15:8,p<:001).
...
Fifty-six participants (28%) had regular heterosex-
ual sex both at PRE and at POST (in all but one case with
the same person, their spouse). As would be expected very few of these 56 participants reported Good Hetero-
sexual Functioning at PRE (5%,nD3). In contrast, 84%(nD47) of these participants reported Good Heterosex-ual Functioning at POST
...

Critiques of the above study include the inability to verify they were changed because of self evaluation, however I hold it up as a proof that its possible as at least some of the respondents were not lying. We can't know the exact numbers until a comprehensive study has been done, which at the moment the homosexual lobbies are blocking through politics, threats of termination, etc...etc.... This is also the reason the best methods haven't been researched or improvements made. You'll also note the results look similar to those of drug rehabilitation therapies.

Another study here, delves into the causes of homosexuality and the rates at which they can be converted to heterosexuals:

http://www.narth.com/#!the-apa---bieber-study/c1sl8

quote:
{On being removed from the medical books} On first consideration, such a theory sounds plausible. However we see its startling consequences when we apply it to a condition such as pedophilia. Is the happy and otherwise well-functioning pedophile "normal"? As Dr. Bieber argues in this article, psychopathology can be ego-syntonic and not cause distress; and social effectiveness--that is, the ability to maintain positive social relations and perform work effectively--"may coexist with psychopathology, in some cases even of a psychotic order."
...
But the most significant finding was that of the detached father. "The father-son relationship was almost the diametrical opposite of that between mother and son. The paternal portrait was one of a father who was either detached or covertly or overtly hostile," he reported. While there was some variance in the mother-son relationship, Dr. Bieber reported, "The father-son relationship, however, revealed uniformly an absence of loving, warm, constructive paternal attitudes and behavior. In my long experience, I have not found a single case where, in the developing years, a father had a kind, affectionate, and constructive relationship with the son who becomes homosexual. This has been an unvarying finding. It is my view, and I have so stated and written, that if a father has a kind, affectionate, and constructive relationship with his son, he will not produce a homosexual son, no matter what the mother is like."

Dr. Bieber's study in fact found a continuity of poor relationships with males, beginning with the father, older brothers, and same-sex peers in childhood. He concludes, "The consistent history of unremitting fear of and hostility to other males throughout childhood has led me to conclude that male homosexuality is basically an adaptation to a disorder of a man's relationship with other men."
...
Of the 106 homosexuals who started psychoanalytic therapy, 29 changed to exclusively heterosexuality, which represented 27 percent of the total sample.
...
Dr. Bieber discussed the issue of the definition of normality. Because homosexual fantasies and behavior are fear-based, he concluded, we
...
cannot call them normal.
...
Summary

The factors that determined the decision of the APA to delete homosexuality from DSM-II were summarized as follows:

Gay activists had a profound influence on psychiatric thinking.

A sincere belief was held by liberal-minded and compassionate psychiatrists that listing homosexuality as a psychiatric disorder supported and reinforced prejudice against homosexuals. Removal of the term from the diagnostic manual was viewed as a humane, progressive act.

There was an acceptance of new criteria to define psychiatric conditions. Only those disorders that caused a patient to suffer or that resulted in adjustment problems were thought to be appropriate for inclusion in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.


We find that the removal of homosexuality was mostly political, coupled with a lack of information at the time, if it were to be re-evaluated using modern studies it would be put right back in because it 'regularly causes distress' from within homosexual relationships and not from external pressures and according to the above studies it is fear based.

This aggregate of multiple genetic studies found that there is no correlation between homosexuality and genetics, only a correlations between popular opinion and media expression of the idea that genetics causes homosexuality:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/100219506/Is-There-a-Gay-Gene-

quote:
Many laymen now believe that homosexuality is part of
who a person really is from the moment of conception.

The "genetic and unchangeable" theory has been actively promoted by gay activists and the popular media. Is homosexuality really an inborn and normal variant of human nature?

No. There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply "genetic." and none of the research claims there is.

Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.


Even adolescents that are confused due to environmental factors (as shown in the studies above) tend to naturally shift toward heterosexuality by age 17-19:

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/Change.htm

quote:
The idea that adolescent same-sex attraction will always become adult same sex attraction is quite incorrect. Data from the large USA ADD-Health survey (Savin-Williams and Ream, 2007) confirm that adolescent homosexuality/bisexuality both in attraction and behaviour undergoes extraordinary change from year to year. Much of this could be experimentation. The changes are overwhelmingly in the direction of heterosexuality, which even at age 16-17 is at least 25 times as stable as bisexuality or homosexuality, whether for men and women. That is, 16 year olds saying they have an SSA or Bi- orientation are 25 times more likely to change towards heterosexuality at the age of 17 than those with a heterosexual orientation are likely to change towards bi-sexuality or homosexuality. Under the most extreme conservative assumptions heterosexuality is still 3x more stable for men and 4x for women.

This study shows that same-sex parents increase maltreatment of children and that there is a link between maltreatment of children and homosexuality:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22976519

quote:
Epidemiological studies find a positive association between physical and sexual abuse, neglect, and witnessing violence in childhood and same-sex sexuality in adulthood, but studies directly assessing the association between these diverse types of maltreatment and sexuality cannot disentangle the causal direction because the sequencing of maltreatment and emerging sexuality is difficult to ascertain. Nascent same-sex orientation may increase risk of maltreatment; alternatively, maltreatment may shape sexual orientation. Our study used instrumental variable models based on family characteristics that predict maltreatment but are not plausibly influenced by sexual orientation (e.g., having a stepparent) as natural experiments to investigate whether maltreatment might increase the likelihood of same-sex sexuality in a nationally representative sample (n = 34,653). In instrumental variable models, history of sexual abuse predicted increased prevalence of same-sex attraction by 2.0 percentage points [95 % confidence interval (CI) = 1.4-2.5], any same-sex partners by 1.4 percentage points (95 % CI = 1.0-1.9), and same-sex identity by 0.7 percentage points (95 % CI = 0.4-0.9). Effects of sexual abuse on men's sexual orientation were substantially larger than on women's. Effects of non-sexual maltreatment were significant only for men and women's sexual identity and women's same-sex partners. While point estimates suggest much of the association between maltreatment and sexual orientation may be due to the effects of maltreatment on sexual orientation, confidence intervals were wide. Our results suggest that causal relationships driving the association between sexual orientation and childhood abuse may be bidirectional, may differ by type of abuse, and may differ by sex. Better understanding of this potentially complex causal structure is critical to developing targeted strategies to reduce sexual orientation disparities in exposure to abuse.

Most of the articles I find that criticize the studies that show homosexual change fall under the Continuum logical fallacy claiming things like the definition they used for homosexuality was 'imprecise' or 'not accurate'. No definition of homosexuality is widely agreed upon in the medical or scientific world so it would be impossible to have a precise or accurate definition to start from.

I'm out of time today, but I will come back and respond to posts in a day or two.


Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Tangle, posted 03-28-2014 2:50 PM lokiare has taken no action
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 Message 230 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-28-2014 7:41 PM lokiare has taken no action
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 Message 238 by Pressie, posted 03-31-2014 7:33 AM lokiare has taken no action
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8491
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 228 of 1309 (723289)
03-28-2014 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by lokiare
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


lokiare writes:

I'm out of time today, but I will come back and respond to posts in a day or two.

When you do, please explain how any of this involves choice.

Also, have you now accepted that you personally couldn't actually choose to be gay?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 641 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 229 of 1309 (723290)
03-28-2014 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by lokiare
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


Again, lengthy copy and pastes with little comment are not arguments.

You do have to be more careful though:

Older Siblings are more likely to become homosexual (not a genetic trait):

That is not what the study reference says at all, it says that younger brothers are more likely to be (not become) homosexual when there are a number of older brothers.

Birth order trend would indicate changing hormonal balance during development.

First studies show no linkage from the xq28 alleles:

But doesn't rule out any other linkage/s. In particular I expect the genetic basis for attraction to be in a different location than the genetic basis for sex determination, and that is where I would expect to find a "gay" gene. This study does not address that issue.

Here they suggest that the birth month combined with a birth defect could cause female homosexuality:

quote:
... In two smaller studies, north-American and other northern-hemisphere born lesbians showed the same strong-hitter birth seasonality while gay men showed the opposite seasonality. The sexual dimorphism-critical 4th-fetal-month testosterone surge coincides with the summer-solstice in early-November births and the winter-solstice in early-May births. These coincidences are discussed and a "melatonin mechanism" ...

That is not a birth defect but again an hormonal effect on development.

This article proposes making a new definition of 'mental disorder' and is deemed a failure if it somehow includes homosexuality, despite homosexuality being removed from the 'mental disorder' list for political rather than scientific reasons. This is known as the "Suppressed Correlative" Fallacy. Rather than carefully defining what a 'mental disorder' is and seeing what falls under that category, they instead use a faulty test to see if they've arrived at the definition. Excluding the ability to define homosexuality as a 'mental disorder' regardless if it is one or not.

Nope, that is them recognizing that it is not a mental disorder and that misclassification on the basis of discrimination or socio-political deviance had occurred before then.

I lose interest in pursuing others of your quotes seeing as you are batting zero so far: it appears you see things in these articles that are in your beliefs rather than in the articles ... it's called confirmation bias and it is a logical fallacy.

[abe]Make that four out of four ...

This study shows that same-sex parents increase maltreatment of children and that there is a link between maltreatment of children and homosexuality:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22976519

quote:
... but studies directly assessing the association between these diverse types of maltreatment and sexuality cannot disentangle the causal direction because the sequencing of maltreatment and emerging sexuality is difficult to ascertain. Nascent same-sex orientation may increase risk of maltreatment; alternatively, maltreatment may shape sexual orientation. Our study used instrumental variable models based on family characteristics that predict maltreatment but are not plausibly influenced by sexual orientation (e.g., having a stepparent) as natural experiments to investigate whether maltreatment might increase the likelihood of same-sex sexuality in a nationally representative sample (n = 34,653). In instrumental variable models, history of sexual abuse predicted increased prevalence of same-sex attraction by 2.0 percentage points [95 % confidence interval (CI) = 1.4-2.5], any same-sex partners by 1.4 percentage points (95 % CI = 1.0-1.9), and same-sex identity by 0.7 percentage points (95 % CI = 0.4-0.9). ...

That is once again NOT what the study says. The study says that maltreatment has roughly a 2% correlation with children being being homosexual and with forming same-sex relationships, and that there is no telling if the abuse was due to the child being homosexual. These results are also very near to the amount of error in the study, so it might just be noise or due to some other cause.[/abe]

Let's cut to the chase: what is wrong with letting people have different sexual orientations as long as they are lawful, respectful adults that treat you no different because of your sexual orientation?

Again, I ask you to demonstrate what bad effect is caused by anyone being homosexual or lesbian beyond that you don't like because of your biased views on the matter -- what harm does it do to society?

My answer is none.

Can you refute that?

What are you so afraid of in accepting that sexual orientation happens, regardless of cause?

Edited by RAZD, : added


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 287 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 230 of 1309 (723305)
03-28-2014 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by lokiare
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


So, you could find no plausible evidence suggesting that homosexuality is a choice.

I thought not.

In an ideal world, then, you would stop claiming that it is.

---

Also would you please shut up about "logical fallacies" until you understand what they are? Cheers.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 231 of 1309 (723306)
03-28-2014 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Dr Adequate
03-28-2014 7:41 PM


Dr Adequate writes:

Also would you please shut up about "logical fallacies" until you understand what they are? Cheers.

Remind you of a cargo cult?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-28-2014 7:41 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 287 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 232 of 1309 (723308)
03-28-2014 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by subbie
03-28-2014 8:11 PM


Remind you of a cargo cult?

Perhaps, but my own chosen appellation for our new friend would not be distinguished by the presence of a voiced alveolar lateral approximant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by subbie, posted 03-28-2014 8:11 PM subbie has replied

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subbie
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 233 of 1309 (723309)
03-28-2014 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Dr Adequate
03-28-2014 8:31 PM


I would hope you would eschew the vulgar, misogynistic Anglo-Saxon dysphemism.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 234 of 1309 (723315)
03-29-2014 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by lokiare
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


Have you even read those articles?

You need to work on your reading comprehension. This means understanding the vocabulary, employing unbiased critical thinking skills, and drawing logical conclusions.

No one expects you (or anyone for that matter) to know everything, particularly subjects that are outside your area of expertise, but at least make the effort to understand what it is you are posting.


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8491
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 235 of 1309 (723317)
03-29-2014 4:05 AM


A law to allow same sex marriage in England and Wales came into effect last night at midnight. The Church of England, which has 26 seats in our parliament, has accepted the new law but will not allow weddings in their churches or recognise the marriages. (Whatever that means).

The church is going to get into a right pickle about it - just like they have with women bishops - as they won't allow gay vicars to marry. Some of them have already said that they will marry, despite that they might lose their jobs and homes - it should be quite comical watching the theological and legal cartwheeling that will result.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Larni, posted 03-29-2014 5:50 AM Tangle has taken no action

Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 236 of 1309 (723318)
03-29-2014 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Tangle
03-29-2014 4:05 AM


I'm very happy about this new law.

Fundamentalist types can whine and bitch all they like but their way of life is going the way of the dinosaurs (sorry, contrary unicorns).

I couldn't be happier that they cannot force their Bronze Age ways of life on people in the UK yet another issue.

:rofl:

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Tangle, posted 03-29-2014 4:05 AM Tangle has taken no action

RAZD
Member (Idle past 641 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 237 of 1309 (723348)
03-30-2014 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by lokiare
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


Homophobia can be cured ...
Curiously, I binged therapy for homophobia and got several results:

As with any internet search you need to sort out the fact from the fiction. For instance ... the onion article is fantasy (certainly sounds like someone's fantasy ... ):

Revolutionary New Homophobia Immersion Therapy Involves Lowering Patient Into Tank Of Gays

quote:
BOSTON—During a widely publicized press conference at the Boston University School of Medicine Friday, researchers announced a breakthrough new technique that cures homophobia by immersing patients in a large glass tank overflowing with gays. "Rather than avoid one's fear of homosexual men, we believe it's crucial to face it head on," behavioral psychologist Dr. Dolph Kleineman told reporters, explaining how homophobic subjects are hooked up to a harness and lowered into a room containing bare-chested men dancing suggestively to the latest club hits, kissing, and feeding one another strawberries. "So far the treatment has been successful, with early test subjects being able to go out into the real world and see a gay couple hold hands without making a bigoted remark." When asked if there was a risk of subjects getting stuck in the tank of writhing men, Kleineman said the gays would be so oiled up that patients would have no trouble slipping in and out.

a little bit of ... ah shall we say ... tongue in cheek eh?

But (happily) there really are several bonafide therapies for homophobia.

First one should determine if phobia is involved -- there are many kinds of phobias and the all share some characteristics -- and determine if they are homophobic:

Symptoms

quote:
Symptoms

  • Feelings of anxiety or discomfort when exposed to homosexuals or when discussing issues involving homosexuality
  • Critical or hostile behaviors directed toward homosexuals or their interests
  • An espoused belief that homosexuals:
    • are sick, evil, or unnatural
    • are "choosing" to be different than they should be
    • are motivated by lust rather than love in forming their relationships
    • are less worthy of recognition and protection of their relationships than are heterosexuals

Notice how these symptoms mirror some of your comments ...

Or a more extensive list:

HOMOPHOBIA Symptoms: Friends of the Fear

quote:
Every case of homophobia is a little different.

Why? Because the core of the problem – the patterns of thinking, the images, movies, sounds and dialog that are internally associated with homosexuality – are different in each person.

But while the ‘internal representations’ as they are called are different from person to person there are a number of symptoms which are common to many homophobes:

  • A feeling of uncontrollable anxiety when you think about or are exposed to homosexuality
  • The feeling that you must do everything possible to avoid homosexuality
  • The inability to function normally because of your anxiety
  • Often, the knowledge that your fears are unreasonable or exaggerated but feeling powerless to control them

Homophobic symptoms can be mental, emotional and physical. The anxiety and fear can go from mild feelings of apprehension to a full-blown panic attack.

Mental Symptoms

  • Obsessive Thoughts
  • Difficulty thinking about anything other than the fear
  • Really bad images and/or movies of homosexuality
  • Feelings of unreality or of being detached from yourself
  • Fear of losing control or going crazy
  • Fear of fainting

Emotional Symptoms:

  • Anticipatory Anxiety: Persistent worrying about upcoming events that involve homosexuality
  • Terror: A persistent and overwhelming fear of the same
  • Desire to Flee: An intense instinct to leave the situation (which is tough when its purely in the mind)
  • (and usually later), Anger, Sadness, Fear, Hurt & Guilt

Physical Symptoms:

  • Dizziness, shaking, palpitations.
  • Shortness of breath or smothering sensation
  • Palpitations, pounding heart, or accelerated heart rate
  • Chest pain or discomfort
  • Trembling or shaking
  • Feeling of choking
  • Sweating
  • Nausea or stomach distress
  • Feeling unsteady, dizzy, lightheaded, or faint
  • Numbness or tingling sensations
  • Hot or cold flashes

Once you have determined that phobia is involved, then one can look into what the causes of the particular homophobia are, and if they apply, as this helps determine the appropriate therapy:

On Causes of Homophobia

quote:
Primary

Repressed feelings of same-sex attraction

Human sexuality is not binary. It is a fluid continuum all the way from completely-homosexual to completely-heterosexual.

Many individuals in the middle of the spectrum experience some degree of same-sex longing and attraction, but the majority are constrained from acting on these feelings due to the social consequences they believe would accompany a perception that they are anything other than completely-straight.

This ongoing conflict makes these individuals highly prone to suffer from homophobia and to engage in homophobic compensating behaviors in order to mask their true feelings.

Secondary

Supposed scriptural prohibitions of homosexual acts

Individuals who possess strong religious beliefs but who lack the capacity or inclination for critical independent judgment can frequently be induced to homophobia by (already homophobic) leaders who cite obscure scriptural verses which they interpret to prohibit homosexual acts.

The demonization of homosexuals

Gays and lesbians have long been used by homophobic religious and political leaders as convenient foils for wedge politics and the politics of distraction. The idea, for example, that there is a "homosexual agenda" that if not actively-countered will somehow lead to the decline of civilization has been widely-used to rally right-wing voters.


Note that secondary causes are learned behavior, and thus they should be most amenable to treatment by learning the truth about homosexuality within the human spectrum of sexual behavior.

So now lets look at the various treatments:

Homophobia Treatment

quote:
Primary Infections

Homophobia caused by repressed same-sex attraction:

Primary infections of homophobia (those caused by sufferer's repression of homosexual feelings) can usually only be cured by either the individual coming to terms with their position on the sexual continuum or by changes in the social pressures that caused them to adopt the homophobic compensating behavior as a coping strategy in the first place.

Secondary Infections

The single most effective treatment for seconday infections of homophobia is for the sufferer to engage in open and honest conversation with actual homosexuals. Such conversations should include: how and when they knew they were gay, why they can't just be straight like everyone else, and what exactly is on their gay agenda.

This treatment is usually counterproductive, however, in primary cases (those caused by repressed homosexual tendencies), since it may force the sufferer deeper into compensating behaviors in order to avoid detection by the gay person as not completely straight.

Homophobia based on supposed scriptural prohibitions of homosexual acts:

Homophobia based on supposed scriptural prohibitions can be easily remedied by critical questioning of both the appropriate linguistic translation of the texts and by analyses of their contexts (for example, the fact that each of these verses can be interpreted as prohibiting homosexual acts in the context of rape and/or prostiution and not in the context of loving and committed same-sex relationships). Also, the motivations of individuals who would cite them as critically important, although plucked from among a sea of other verses which are now universally ignored, should always be questioned (e.g., are they espousing these positions for political or economic gain or as a compensating behavior to mask their own repressed homosexual tendencies?).

Homophobia caused by the demonization of homosexuals:

Homophobia caused by the demonization of homosexuals is the least virulent type and will generally cure itself over time in the absence such messages. It can also be remedied quickly after gaining an enlightened awareness that the demonization tactic is being employed.


And another look at treatment and cure:

Homophobia Treatment & Cure

quote:
Treatment and Cure: Two Very Different Things

So treatment means trying to do something about it.
Cure means the problem is gone.

This page is about both.

Exposure Therapy

If you suspect that you have a phobia, start by talking with your doctor who can recommend a therapist. You’ll likely be treated with exposure therapy for your phobia, although your therapist may also recommend additional treatments.

Exposure therapy is a form of cognitive-behavioral therapy. It involves putting yourself into increasingly stressful scenarios involving your particular phobia and overcoming your fear with new learning.

Self-Help

Self-help really means do-it-yourself and could be anything from choosing a home study program to extreme exposure therapy. There’s no single self-help solution – but there is a philosphy we think is helpful: taking resposibility for your own cure, whatever method you choose.

Talk Therapy

If self-help techniques haven’t worked, talk to your GP. You may need professional help from a psychiatrist (a doctor who specializes in mental health conditions) or other therapist. For many people, the best treatment for phobias is behavioral therapy.

Behavioral Therapy

Behavioral therapy involves one-to-one sessions with a therapist trained in treating phobias. The principle of this approach involves exposure and a gradual desensitization to homophobia. During the sessions, you learn to tolerate the anxiety triggered by exposure with the help of relaxation techniques.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
For some people cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is an option. This involves exercises to alter the inappropriate patterns of thinking you have developed and the behavior that stems from them.

Medicines

Medicines are increasingly used to treat even mild cases. Any doctor can prescribe a range of medicines and drug options for fear of homosexuality (follow that link for our dedicated page).

The Bottom Line

There’s plenty of therapies out there, but few cures.

Remember a homophobia cure means eliminating homophobia so it now feels as if it was never there.


Bottom line is that treatment is available, so see if it helps.

Then we get to prevention of homophobia so that you can help stop it spreading:

Prevention of Homophobia:

quote:
Prevention

  • Understand that human sexuality is a continuum and that there are many people near the middle of the spectrum. Try to make people feel at ease by letting them know that you will accept and support them however they truly are.
  • Engage in social contact with actual homosexuals and ask them meaningful questions about their lives.
  • Refuse to be distracted from the central teachings of most religions (e.g., the golden rule) by leaders who justify their anti-gay positions by citing obscure verses but who fail to show equal concern for abiding by the surrounding verses.
  • Learn to recognize when the demonization tactic is being employed.

Learn
Heal
Live

ps - you can see many more sites on homophobic treatment at therapy for homophobia

Edited by RAZD, : reorganized and added

Edited by RAZD, : format

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : more


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by lokiare, posted 03-28-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has taken no action

Pressie
Member
Posts: 2102
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 238 of 1309 (723354)
03-31-2014 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by lokiare
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


Lokaire, nothing in your references tells us that homosexuality is a choice.

After reading through the sources you provided; I couldn't find the reseach showing that either homosexuality or heterosexuality is a choice at all...

For example; nowhere in the sources you provided were heterosexual genes discussed. Have researchers found heterosexual genes?

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by lokiare, posted 03-28-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Raphael, posted 04-01-2014 1:35 PM Pressie has taken no action

ringo
Member
Posts: 19526
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(5)
Message 239 of 1309 (723426)
04-01-2014 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by lokiare
03-25-2014 9:42 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
lokiare writes:

Homosexuality is simply a choice of sexual partners it does not inform the rest of your life.


Y'know, I couldn't care less whether homosexuality is a choice or not. The point is that somebody else's choice of sexual partners is none of your business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 9:42 PM lokiare has taken no action

Raphael
Member
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


(1)
Message 240 of 1309 (723432)
04-01-2014 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Pressie
03-31-2014 7:33 AM


Pressie writes:

Lokaire, nothing in your references tells us that homosexuality is a choice.
After reading through the sources you provided; I couldn't find the research showing that either homosexuality or heterosexuality is a choice at all...

For example; nowhere in the sources you provided were heterosexual genes discussed. Have researchers found heterosexual genes?

If I remember correctly I believe Lokaire's OP contained a link with multiple sources confirming there is no biological evidence for homosexuality being genetic. Could be wrong. Regardless, it seems silly to argue about whether or not sexual orientation is genetic or not.

From a "religious" side of things, as a Christian, neither conclusion is at odds with the Biblical perspective. If it is not genetic, as the studies provided, then that makes sense Biblically, and if it is a choice, then that also makes sense. Personally I believe it is a combination of all factors.

Regardless, and from a non religious side of things, my thoughts on the issue is that this country has been and is about equal rights, both for the individual AND the collective, and freedom for those who are oppressed. Equal rights for the oppressed (contextually here, homosexuals) is something Christians should fight for, as that is what Jesus fought for. Hopefully that means seeking, fighting, and supporting something better for those who feel oppressed. Which isn't always homosexuals nowadays, by the way.

- Just a few thoughts!

Raph


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Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2014 2:22 PM Raphael has replied
 Message 243 by RAZD, posted 04-01-2014 4:32 PM Raphael has taken no action

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