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Author Topic:   Big Bang Found
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 301 (723471)
04-02-2014 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by kbertsche
04-02-2014 1:00 AM


Re: Double talk..
For the Big Bang, you don't want to accept that it has a cause, because the time interval for any ontologically prior cause must be zero.
Not quite. Under the proposed theory, the time interval is not zero. There is no time at all in which a cause could act. Time does not exist, and causation implicitly requires an effect and time. If you want to talk about an exception for the required opportunity to act, then I am going to require that we consider an exception for the entire requirement for cause, because you are not then talking about an argument based on experience. Your argument is then theological.
And by the way, substituting 'ontologically' for 'logically' is not much help. It is the 'prior' you keep using that basically reveals your argument to be empty. Ontologically just reminds me that yours is not really a philosophic argument.
But let's be clear. What I reject is not causation, because it is not proven that time was created in the Big Bang. That is a theory that may turn out to be wrong. What I reject is an argument that begins with, and relies on the premise that everything must have a cause. The idea that time began at the Big Bang then is simply an example that allows us to reject your premise as necessarily true.
It may well be even in a time replete universe that things can spring into existence without cause, simply because the intrinsic quality of matter, energy, and their arrangement allows it. At one point we devoted an entire thread here to whether the net energy of the universe was zero, because a poster wanted to refute the idea that the universe could have been created by a quantum fluctuation without any cause.
For an unstable nucleus, you apparently don't want to accept its creation in an unstable state as the cause of its eventual decay, presumably because the time interval can be very long.
Let me dismiss that presumption as wrong. I used long lived isotopes because I thought the lengthy time period was more likely to get your attention, while short periods could be ignored. But even with short lived isotopes, the time decay is utterly unconnected with the method or fact of creation of the nuclei and the passage of time does not change the state of the nuclei. Unstable nuclei do not age, and yet at some point they emit a nuclei, and at times prior they don't. We can predict statistically when a bunch of them will decay. But no examination of the state tells us that nuclei X is on its death bed.
Compare that situation to that of sands in an hour glass. At any given moment When we ask why an individual grain of sand falls to the bottom, we can answer that question based on the state of the sand before the grain fell. Not so with nuclei.
Do you have a suggested, NoNukes-approved time intverval over which causation is valid? Maybe 1 millisecond to 1 second?
Lol! Surely not. ROFL!
Thanks for reminding me that I have not been as polite and respectful as you deserve. I'll endeavor to do better. I believe I addressed your question above.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by kbertsche, posted 04-02-2014 1:00 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by kbertsche, posted 04-04-2014 12:19 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 246 by Dogmafood, posted 04-06-2014 12:25 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 301 (723472)
04-02-2014 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by kbertsche
04-02-2014 12:43 AM


Re: You haven't said much here...
A is ontologically prior to B if A's existence is a necessary condition of B's existence, but not vice versa. ...
Does it even matter? All of our experience with cause and effect is in a time bearing universe. Those other uses are all lip waving about what people believe, but are not based on reality. You are not going to convince me you are right by telling me what people believe. I need evidence based argument.
Or are you going to totally relax the time requirement and allow causes to come after their effects.
ABE:
And for the third time now, I have pointed to an event which is the cause of the radioactive decay:
Did I ignore that. No. I addressed your question. I'll add another one. Your comment is akin to saying that the cause of death is life. Another reason I find your position unsatisfactory is that all U238 and Th234 atoms were created well after the universe itself was created. But regardless of whether they are created in supernova, by nuclear bombardment in the laboratory, or by decay from yet another nuclide, it appears they all act exactly the same. The cause of the decay is not their creation, except in the silly sense that all events in the universe are impossible without the universe, but is instead associated with the intrinsic structure that a nucleus with a particular arrangement of neutrons and protons always seems to arrange itself in.
If I asked you why you love person X and you cited your birth, I would find your answer equally unsatisfying. And if your story involved your ancestry from Adam and Eve, I'd probably laugh at your answer.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by kbertsche, posted 04-02-2014 12:43 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 301 (723482)
04-02-2014 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by 1.61803
04-02-2014 10:34 AM


Re: Re:
indicated that I believe the forces that drive our universe did not precede it. I have no evidence of this other than the assumption that in the absence of spacetime, matter and energy, from whence could such forces arrive or be derived?
WE DONT KNOW.
I am not sure I understand your response. I only objected to a bit of grammar. You can cause yourself to become an engineer by studying and practicing engineering. There is nothing grammatically wrong with something being self caused.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by 1.61803, posted 04-02-2014 10:34 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by 1.61803, posted 04-02-2014 12:45 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 196 of 301 (723507)
04-03-2014 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by kbertsche
04-03-2014 1:01 AM


Re: Double talk..
I think some folks like to raise the example of radioactive decay because quantum mechanical systems seem complicated and sophisticated, and it is easier to use double-talk to fool people into thinking that quantum mechanical events have no "cause".
You are certainly full of yourself this morning. I used radioactive decay because it was easy to understand. And rather than make up junk to fool you, I actually cited physicists, in this case Bohr and Heisenberg who say that there is no cause.
In contrast, you say that the reason the atoms decay is because they were created.
So which argument is double talk?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 1:01 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 11:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 301 (723508)
04-03-2014 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by kbertsche
04-03-2014 1:01 AM


Oblivious, just oblivious
Take C-14, for example. Cosmic rays strike atoms and create spallation products in the upper atmosphere. Some of these spallation products are free neutrons. Some of these neutrons strike N-14, which has a large cross-section for an (n,p) reaction. This converts the N-14 to C-14.
Sigh.
What you have described is not a decay process. It is instead a neutron induced reaction. Fluorescence is induced by radiation.
Now that C-14 then decays away over time. Half of the created C-14 will be gone in 5730 years through a process that does not involve neutrons striking N-14. What causes that decay?
What causes two identical C-14 atoms to decay millions of years apart?
Your answer is that the difference is intrinsic in a way that is not embodied in the state of the atoms. Don't you see anything fundamentally different between decay and the two induced processes you discuss here?
ABE:
To be clear, because you are determined to miss this and call others fools. In two cases you cite the particles and an inducing agent and the structure of the nuclei. In the final case you talk only about the structure of the nuclei and nothing else for results that are strikingly different every time an atom decays. Yet you see no difference. Nothing to explain.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 1:01 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 11:05 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 301 (723537)
04-03-2014 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by 1.61803
04-03-2014 12:53 PM


Re: Go North Young Man!
"It is unknown if or how inflation occurred"
The "if" is something we think we know. That's what prompted this thread.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 12:53 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 205 of 301 (723539)
04-03-2014 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Dr Adequate
04-03-2014 12:06 PM


Re: Go North Young Man!
What if God is that voice in your head that is really good at mathematics?
it is possible that Adam and Eve knew that and Moses simply got it wrong.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-03-2014 12:06 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 301 (723600)
04-04-2014 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by kbertsche
04-03-2014 11:50 PM


Re: Double talk..
To be clear, I claim that the reason the atoms decay is because they are in an unstable state, and the reason they are in an unstable state is because something caused them to be created in this state. Most physicists will agree with this.
They would all agree unless you the saw where you were going with what you call this cause. As would I. Because what you've stated is a tautology. By definition, we call isotopes that decay, unstable.
Once you've explained the context for this supposed cause, you will get objections from many physicists. I cannot say as you do whether that is most of them. I've shown you Heisenberg's opinion.
The problem is that you have not established what causes an alpha particle to leave when it leaves and what causes it to stay when it stays. Yes, quantum mechanics does predict exactly that behavior, but QM does not explain or point to an impetus for the alpha particle to escape. As best we know, there is no such impetus. No physical change in the nuclei prompts the alpha particle to leave, and no amount of text you type covers up the distinction between that an a neutron whacking into an N14 nucleus.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 11:50 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by cavediver, posted 04-05-2014 7:36 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 301 (723601)
04-04-2014 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by kbertsche
04-04-2014 12:19 AM


Re: Double talk..
I don't believe that causation necessarily requires time, even in our daily experience.
The ball causes a depression in the cushion.
You cannot possibly have thought that through. If what you say was correct we would have daily, first hand observation of cushions and pillows accelerating at infinite rates whenever we touched them. Yet we know that the acceleration is limited to F=ma. Always. With F always being finite.
What's worse is that you have also completely disproved the 3 second rule for picking up and eating candy after it is dropped onto a dirty floor. I simply cannot accept that.
Everything takes time. Sorry but that's life in our universe.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by kbertsche, posted 04-04-2014 12:19 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 301 (723603)
04-04-2014 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by kbertsche
04-03-2014 11:50 PM


Re: Double talk..
Yes, some physicists will say that nuclear decay is uncaused. But this is somewhat misleading, and is not a robust philosophical statement.
Not being a 'robust philosophical statement' is not exactly an indictment. I have given you a statement of physics. I don't really care how you feel about that philosophically, because I don't share your philosophy.
Here is some kbertsche style causation.
Usain Bolt wins races because he is faster than his opponents. He was created in such a way that his training and diet has produced an extremely fast human being. Robust?
Now quite obviously we can do much better than that. We can discuss what there is about his musculature, skeletal makeup, metabolism, coordination etc. that produces great speed an acceleration and we can discuss the physics about how he applies those gifts.
But that would not be philosophical, nor apparently, is pointing out that we cannot do the same analysis on an unstable nucleus to find why it is taking so long to decay.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 11:50 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 221 of 301 (723615)
04-04-2014 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by frako
04-04-2014 7:36 AM


Re: Double talk..
What is the cause that creates the 2 opposite virtual particles,
I'll give you the k-answer.
The event that prompted that creation is the creation of the universe itself which now has an intrinsic property that vacuum now creates virtual particles. The virtual particles are created by quantum chromodynamics (QCD). So they are caused despite the fact that they are produced spontaneously.
Or some such silly crap.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by frako, posted 04-04-2014 7:36 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by frako, posted 04-04-2014 4:26 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 301 (723639)
04-04-2014 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by frako
04-04-2014 4:26 PM


Re: Double talk..
Yea but by the same logic one could say the intrinsic nature of absolute nothing is that it wants to represent itself as a sum of equal positives and negatives.
One could certainly say that. Most people have enough concern for their reputations not to say it. Perhaps you should claim that most mathematicians would say that.
Yes! Blame it on Dr. Adequate!
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by frako, posted 04-04-2014 4:26 PM frako has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 301 (723666)
04-05-2014 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by cavediver
04-05-2014 7:36 AM


Re: Double talk..
The nuclear decay probability is not some simple random distribution, but the aggregate of an unfathomable number of interactions. The state space of a nucleus is enormous and it is continuously moving through that space.
I cannot rule that out, of course, but what you are saying does not appear to be kbertsche's argument. He does not seem to think nuclei have an "aged" state either, or at least he takes no issue with my saying so.
Our inability to probe that state space leads us to say "random" and "stochastic"
Do you believe that probing the state would turn up a mechanism? Because if not, then saying decay occurs "stochastic" after a nuclei is formed is just description and not an argument that decay has a cause (or that it does not).
And of course, nothing, even including an impossible probing, can really prove that something is "uncaused in an ontological sense", if omnipotence and science defying power are allowed. Perhaps the Creator watches individually over atomic nuclei and triggers their fate on a schedule that produces the half lives we observe.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by cavediver, posted 04-05-2014 7:36 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by cavediver, posted 04-05-2014 1:28 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 301 (723669)
04-05-2014 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by cavediver
04-05-2014 1:17 PM


Re: Double talk..
and talking about uncaused quantum events within our Universe is decidedly unhelpful, not to mention a great example of the fallacy of composition.
I have to take issue with the accusation of indulging in a fallacy. Talking about quantum events in the universe came up in reaction to arguments that causation was our total experience and therefore must be applicable to the universe. The idea was to cause k-man to re-think some of his arguments and not to win the entire argument by analogy or multiplication/addition.
Ultimately thought I could not accomplish my objective. At least we were noisy enough to get a couple of physicists to comment. I consider that a win.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by cavediver, posted 04-05-2014 1:17 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by kbertsche, posted 04-05-2014 9:46 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 240 of 301 (723692)
04-05-2014 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by kbertsche
04-05-2014 9:24 PM


Re: Double talk... I mean really...
Without such external influences to set boundary conditions the effect won't exist.
I believe that your original question is carefully worded not to produce a relevant answer. Because even if what you say is correct, the question of whether virtual particles are real rather than just math does not rely on whether an apparatus is required to detect them.
Is the Casimir merely effect the attraction between the two metal plates generated in the absence of external fields? Then obviously the effect depends on the apparatus, and in particular having the metal plates.
If the question being answered is whether virtual particles exist, then the fact that those conditions are required to produce the Casimir force does not demonstrate that there are no virtual particles.
In a sense, your position is like insisting that there is no electrostatic field present in a room absent another particle or a time varying magnetic field to produce a detectable effect.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by kbertsche, posted 04-05-2014 9:24 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
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