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Author Topic:   Unjust Deserts - Gar Alperovitz & Lew Daly
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 53 (723499)
04-03-2014 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
04-01-2014 12:08 PM


Share and Share Alike
ringo writes:
Isn't that what the OP is advocating? Making it illegal to steal more than your share?
How do we go about determining what ones share is? If all of the wealth in the world were divided equally, the system wouldnt work.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 04-01-2014 12:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 04-03-2014 2:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 04-03-2014 11:48 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 53 (723602)
04-04-2014 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by ringo
04-03-2014 11:48 AM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Phat writes:
If all of the wealth in the world were divided equally, the system wouldnt work.
Ringo writes:
Why not?
Human nature just doesnt work that way. What may seem fair for an up and coming African family may make a European cry in agony. Humans are used to what they have now. Society has no Karl Marx ordained right to redistribute wealth nor could it be done without provoking wars and violence. Thats just human nature.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 04-03-2014 11:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 11:43 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 53 (723622)
04-04-2014 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
04-04-2014 11:43 AM


Re: Share and Share Alike
ringo writes:
It's a Jesus-ordained duty
Which is all well and good on an individual and voluntary level. We would never get governments to follow Jesus mandates,however. It didnt work back then and it wont work now...practically speaking. On an individual level, however, we can slang spare change to our hearts content. Ive yet to see anyone give all they have, however.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 12:23 PM Phat has replied
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 04-04-2014 2:45 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 53 (723626)
04-04-2014 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ringo
04-04-2014 12:23 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
The problem is in its practicality. We could vote anyone and everyone out of office...the issue is whom would we vote in? Would I really want to vote in a politician who would redistribute my lower middle class wage to reflect global poverty? In the mentime, logic says that the wealthy guys would give up their share a lot slower than I would be forced to do. I guess--in summation---I dont think that communism would work on a global scale, nor in all honesty would I be prone to embrace it. I guess I'm still convinced that humans are not ready for such a contrived utopia.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 12:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 12:35 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 53 (723629)
04-04-2014 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
04-04-2014 12:35 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
well...I did just now look up your role model, Dr.Norman Bethune. Seems he was an ardent communist/socialist---married his wife and spent most of her inheritance on a grand tour of Europe...then they divorced. I bet she was convinced he was nuts. He did champion the cause for the poor and often gave them free medical care, however.
Seems he wrote a poem for the Spanish Civil War in 1937:
quote:
And the same pallid moon tonight,
Which rides so quietly, clear and high,
The mirror of our pale and troubled gaze
Raised to a cool Canadian sky.
Above the shattered Spanish troops
Last night rose low and wild and red,
Reflecting back from her illumined shield
The blood bespattered faces of the dead.
To that pale disc we raise our clenched fists,
And to those nameless dead our vows renew,
Comrades, who fought for freedom and the future world,
Who died for us, we will remember you.
Seems he saw equality as the only true freedom. I doubt that I would have the guts to follow Norman Bethune...much less Jesus. Besides...obedience is better than sacrifice...im just waiting for God to make me obedient enough to live a life of sacrifice.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 12:35 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 12:49 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 53 (723640)
04-04-2014 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
04-04-2014 12:49 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Its all well and good to quote Matthew and yes, I do believe that Jesus said it...but do you realistically expect someone--anyone--to sell everything they have and walk around helping people? Without government welfare? Health care? a car to drive? Without getting paid anything? Lets be practical here...
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 12:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 04-05-2014 11:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 53 (723641)
04-04-2014 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jon
04-04-2014 2:45 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
We would never get governments to follow Jesus mandates,however.
[qs=Jon]Why not?

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 04-04-2014 2:45 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 53 (723642)
04-04-2014 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jon
04-04-2014 2:45 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
We would never get governments to follow Jesus mandates,however.
Jon writes:
Why not?
First of all, elected officials are never elected due to the will of an overwhelming majority of the people. Second, money and power are responsible for many of the elected officials...not simple people power---and we all know the frequent deadlocks in Congress and the Senate. My point is, any change encounters some resistance and a change of the order of magnitude suggested in this book would quite likely encounter resistance to the point of violence. Special interests would seek to protect the stuff they have---(look at the occupy wall street movements as a small tip of the ice burg. ) The moral argument is basically sound, yet will require a voluntary cooperation of the people. Aint nobody gonna start redistributing stuff on a massive scale that wont likely get shot in so doing.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 04-04-2014 2:45 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 04-04-2014 10:47 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 53 (723649)
04-05-2014 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jon
04-04-2014 10:47 PM


The Hillbilly Militia
Jon writes:
Except world governments, who, as I've said, have a monopoly on things like shooting folk.
This gets back to guns. Americans own far and away more guns than any other nation on earth. They won't let them be taken away---not all of them, at any rate---and even if our military did try and enforce law on its own citizens, these folks would not obey peacefully. In addition, much of our military is made up of working class citizens who likely wouldnt go against their own people. Of all of the "Arab Springs" and uprisings globally---none would hold a candle to the raw outrage and energy of the home bred folk of rural America. To sum it up: No government would ever tame the wild, rebellious, and eternally free and feisty spirit of the Americans.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 04-04-2014 10:47 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 04-05-2014 11:36 AM Phat has replied
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 04-05-2014 11:43 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 53 (723658)
04-05-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jon
04-05-2014 11:36 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
I obviously have no evidence for how the American people would behave. I do know the mindset of many people, however and I do know that they would resist a world government. In addition, it is a fact that Americans own far more guns than any other urban or rural population.
Do you see any reason why we would obey such a government? (Like the comical notion that it would actually give us what we want?)

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 04-05-2014 11:36 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 04-05-2014 10:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 53 (723661)
04-05-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
04-05-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
ringo writes:
People don't fight for privilege. They buy it - and they pay others to protect it for them.
Thus, in any future scenario involving a world government bent on redistribution of "stuff", there would be an army bought and paid for by the wealthy (who own the most stuff) and there would be an uprising of the masses who---in America at least---own much less stuff than do the wealthy yet far more stuff than the average global citizen. A paid army versus citizens holding on to what they have.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 04-05-2014 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 04-05-2014 11:56 AM Phat has replied
 Message 45 by Omnivorous, posted 04-05-2014 12:40 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 53 (723685)
04-05-2014 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
04-05-2014 11:56 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
Your average "feisty" American gun-owner might shoot at somebody taking his stuff - and kill his own children in the process - but you'll never see an "uprising of the masses".
You forget about religion. If the christians ever collectively believed that one of their endtime scenarios was coming into play, they would fight.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 04-05-2014 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Omnivorous, posted 04-05-2014 7:44 PM Phat has replied
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 04-06-2014 2:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 53 (723698)
04-06-2014 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
04-05-2014 10:00 PM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
The only reason I say "world" government is because I cannot fathom how a democratically elected national government would ever redistribute the wealth---on a more massive scale than they have already done--especially abroad. It would never pass the vote.
As is, our government is polarized between moderate democrats and fascist republicans who are part of the problem anyway as they seek to redistribute the wealth more towards the monied class.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 04-05-2014 10:00 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 04-06-2014 2:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 53 (723703)
04-06-2014 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Omnivorous
04-05-2014 7:44 PM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
Omni writes:
That's a relief--I thought you were saying Christians would take up arms against the Republic to avoid helping the un-American poor.
No, but I may add that the middle and working class in America is in no position to start equalizing global poverty. That money must come from the upper class. We are already under attack and dont have a lot to give away.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Omnivorous, posted 04-05-2014 7:44 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Omnivorous, posted 04-07-2014 11:05 AM Phat has not replied

  
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