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Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 969 (723930)
04-10-2014 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cedre
04-10-2014 7:29 PM


Re: Fact!
No new body plans, no information-rich systems, no complex functional machines have ever been observed or seen by direct experimentation to come about through alleged evolutionary mechanisms.
Why is it that when you express the "scientific" reasons not to believe in evolution, the reasons are exactly the same standard misinformation the creationists always use?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 7:29 PM Cedre has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 969 (724062)
04-11-2014 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Cedre
04-11-2014 7:48 PM


Re: Wow you're the best!
ke Ben Carson I can reject neo-Darwinism and still become a world class surgeon
I honestly belief that you can be a great doctor or surgeon despite knowing or caring nothing about evolution.
It is not your attitude towards evolution that worries me. It is your position on research and peer review that I find troubling. We don't expect doctors to have expert opinions on every biological topic, but we do trust them to make informed decision about the state of the art for on the diseases, treatments and medical procedures.
Your attitude does not cut it, and God forbid if you ever had to cut on me or a family member, because I cannot trust you to keep up with medical research. I might just as well get medical advice from Kevin Trudeau as you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Cedre, posted 04-11-2014 7:48 PM Cedre has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 134 of 969 (724125)
04-13-2014 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by shadow71
04-12-2014 7:43 PM


Re: This is becoming tiresome
Shapiro denies random mutation and natural selection, and postulates natural genetic engineering. His findings confirm his theory that evolution is not random
If this is a summary of the research discussed in past threads, then your statements are a gross mischaracterization. Shapiro, does talk about genetic engineering systems directing evolution in response to stimuli, however those systems developed by random mutation and selection. Further, Shapiro does not eliminate the role of natural selection. He explicitly includes selection. Perhaps you can recall us asking you about Shapiro's references to purifying selection which you acknowledged not understanding.
I'll admit to not having kept up with Shapiro's work, but the papers we discussed back here were summary papers with some data looking into mechanisms present in single celled critters systems, with no indication of how those mutations would make it back into the gametes of multi-celled animals. In fact there was not a hint of any suggestion that of how his 'findings' could apply to organisms other than single celled critters without separation between their somatic and gamete systems. That would not consist of confirmation that evolution was not random in any real sense.
And as Percy has already pointed out Shapiro is not denying common descent. About the only thing this discussion has in common with out past discussions is the confusion about what terms like neo-Darwinism and modern synthesis mean.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by shadow71, posted 04-12-2014 7:43 PM shadow71 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by dwise1, posted 04-13-2014 2:08 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 969 (724172)
04-14-2014 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Bolder-dash
04-14-2014 7:04 AM


Do linguists spend a lot of time learning Darwinian evolution? How about metallurgists?
What a piece of work you guys are.
You post the nonsense list and then call others names, troll?
I see the ***** hasn't abated one bit here at the phony EvC site.
Same old Bolder-Dash; cannot post without spoiling for a fight. Well that mild remark will not earn you the suspension you crave. You are going to have to work harder. How about some mean comments about Percy's Aunt Bea?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Bolder-dash, posted 04-14-2014 7:04 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 969 (724179)
04-14-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Tanypteryx
04-13-2014 9:04 PM


Re: Why Is Evolution So Uncontroversial?
I wish we could find a better example of something that would falsify evolution.
I agree. I think what Faith was trying to say is that we are unlikely to find a cow skeleton down there even if the earth were only 6000 years old and that we have deliberately picked something difficult to find.
By having a list of things and giving general ways for creationists to compose examples of their own, the impression of deck stacking is avoided. Of course there is more reliance on the logical thought processes of creationists...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-13-2014 9:04 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Pressie, posted 04-14-2014 9:33 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 167 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-14-2014 1:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 166 of 969 (724195)
04-14-2014 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by vimesey
04-14-2014 10:22 AM


Re: Why so hostile?
student exchange programme....
More likely a 'buffoon' exchange program. You Brits and your spelling, it's as if you think that you invented English.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by vimesey, posted 04-14-2014 10:22 AM vimesey has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 173 of 969 (724206)
04-14-2014 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Tanypteryx
04-14-2014 1:08 PM


Re: Why Is Evolution So Uncontroversial?
If the earth is only 6000 years old, cow skeletons in those lower strata should be pretty easy to find, but we haven't.
Fossils are always tough to find.
I'm not really trying to defend Faith's comment. I know that it is not defensible. What I am saying that the comment is that it is not flat out stupid given a high level of ignorance and arrogance of the commentor.
I was trying to leave it as something a little more positive than that but you guys pushed me to be more specific.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-14-2014 1:08 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Taq, posted 04-14-2014 3:59 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 181 of 969 (724236)
04-15-2014 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Minnemooseus
04-14-2014 10:13 PM


Re: Not all the Steves in the Project Steve list are biological scientists
I think that Bolder-dash had indeed made a valid point, to counter anyone who promotes the "Project Steve" list as being made up of only biological scientists.
That's a very charitable analysis. Note that no one here did promote Project Steve in that way. There was no promise that the base list was all biologists.
An explicit promise was made to deliver people with biological degrees. Just how difficult was it to figure out that that meant cherry picking from the list of Steves? As has been noted, that list has more than enough biologists named Steve or Stephanie than are needed to dwarf the other list.
I don't think there was anything valid about Bolder-Dash's post. In fact, someone has already vetted the creationist's list and made an attempt to validate the number of life scientists on the list who actually question common descent. The vetting produced far more scientists who were pissed about being on the list than it did creationists who actually rejected the theory of evolution.
In fact, we all know which of the two lists is more full of computer programmers, engineers and other non life scientists of any name.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-14-2014 10:13 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by subbie, posted 04-15-2014 9:38 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 969 (724242)
04-15-2014 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Pressie
04-15-2014 8:49 AM


Re: Why Is Evolution So Uncontroversial?
It won't work on you, but it works on millions of people who don't know what the ToE actually is.
It works on a tiny, insignificant number of people. None of it would confuse a ninth grader taking a biology course.
Working means convincing someone and not simply allowing already convinced people to nod their heads in agreement. Other than the proponents who made those arguments up, I've never met a creationist who used the crocoduck argument, or the perfectly created banana argument or the no abiogensis in a jar of peanut butter argument. My own relatives and in-laws are chock full of creationists and none of them spends any time with Creation Science.
ABE:
Anecdote.
One of my inlaws told me that she had doubts that astronauts had actually gone to the moon. Her reasoning was that the moon was too bright and the astronauts would have become blinds.
I asked her if she was aware that night on the moon lasted about two weeks. My wife, who is not on record as having any position on the matter said that she thought the astronauts helmets had tinted visors. Neither my question nor my wife's answer changed her sister's (oops) mind because Auntie's belief had nothing to do with any fact about the moon.
By the way, who saw the lunar eclipse last night? I went outside at 2AM but it was too cloudy here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Pressie, posted 04-15-2014 8:49 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2014 10:11 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 187 by Percy, posted 04-15-2014 10:30 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 969 (724248)
04-15-2014 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by subbie
04-15-2014 9:38 AM


Re: Not all the Steves in the Project Steve list are biological scientists
I'm willing to go along with it, and I think you should be, too.
I have no objection to you going along with it. However the insults that came along with Bolder's message make it clear that he was not addressing any hypothetical poster who might have misused the "list of Steves".
I simply don't see any reasonable chance that Bolder's post was anything but idiotic. So no, I am not willing to go along with it.
ABE:
Darn it. I missed some humor again didn't I?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by subbie, posted 04-15-2014 9:38 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by subbie, posted 04-15-2014 4:15 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 969 (724249)
04-15-2014 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by New Cat's Eye
04-15-2014 10:11 AM


Re: Why Is Evolution So Uncontroversial?
Throw me a bone, CS. What are you showing me in the picture? Untinted helmets? Certainly we've seen plenty of pictures of moon walking suits with tinted helmets.
I know I'm missing the joke, but I just don't get it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2014 10:11 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by DerelictJunction, posted 04-15-2014 10:59 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2014 11:28 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 969 (724259)
04-15-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by New Cat's Eye
04-15-2014 11:28 AM


Re: Why Is Evolution So Uncontroversial?
Thanks CS. Apparently my sense of humor is not too subtle. But using the blinds did the trick.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2014 11:28 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 198 of 969 (724260)
04-15-2014 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by RAZD
04-15-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Back to earth
I think a valid objection to the cow test is that it is not something that MUST occur if the ToE is false.
You are making the logical error that I believe Faith actually avoided, although perhaps not clearly so.
What you are describing is not falsification of TOE. What you are describing is how we might find evidence or the lack thereof of some other theory.
I think Faith is saying that the cow test is an insincere offering by pro-evolutioners. She's wrong because the cow is not meant to be just a cow. The cow is a stand-in for dogs, rabbits, ferrets, and every other mammal or even for every other land animal depending of the period being discussed.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by RAZD, posted 04-15-2014 11:36 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by ringo, posted 04-15-2014 12:36 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 04-15-2014 12:44 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 241 by RAZD, posted 04-16-2014 11:21 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 969 (724270)
04-15-2014 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Percy
04-15-2014 12:44 PM


Re: Back to earth
I'll mention again that we're off-topic, but Cedre's gone for now so I don't think it matters.
I'm not sure I've made an on topic comment, but one of the ideas expressed in the OP was surprise at the limited amount of instruction on evolution found in medical school.
I don't find that lack the least bit surprising. Doctors are not paleontologists. A doctor could easily find non TOE friendly explanations for why pathogens evolve and having done so, the physician would have no real need to worry about evolution ever again.
Accordingly, that lack does not make evolution controversial in any significant way, nor does one of his professors being relatively ignorant on the topic mean that evolution is controversial among scientists, assuming we can take Cedre's anecdote as accurately reflecting what the professor actually said.
And of course, I would expect that Cedre and his silly anecdote understates the amount of biology taught in medical school anyway. Senator Paul Broun of Georgia who is also a doctor does not say that evolution was not taught in medical school. He instead accuses his professors of teaching lies from the pits of Hell.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 04-15-2014 12:44 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Percy, posted 04-15-2014 3:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 969 (724286)
04-15-2014 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
04-15-2014 4:52 PM


Re: Good grief!
Of COURSE "cow" represents all mammals!
Did you really think that cow was anything other than the first mammal on the poster's mind?
I must apologize to Dr. Adequate and Taq. I was totally wrong about you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 4:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2014 5:22 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 5:22 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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