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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 136 of 638 (724574)
04-18-2014 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by ringo
04-17-2014 12:33 PM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Essentially, Ringo, yes. The 'ink' is the four bases. The sequence of each of the bases in the DNA helix is a digital signal sent in a base-4 numerical system.
The amount of information stored in this system is staggering, as we all, being scientifically literate, know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 04-17-2014 12:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by subbie, posted 04-18-2014 9:38 AM Ed67 has replied
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 04-19-2014 11:41 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 137 of 638 (724577)
04-18-2014 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Dr Adequate
04-17-2014 1:22 PM


quote:
What is needed is not an argument for the code, but an argument for an invisible man making the DNA by magic. This is where creationists seem to fall down.
We need to argue that the best explanation to be inferred from the commonly available evidence is that some intelligent source was involved in designing the SEQUENCE of bases on the DNA code, which is the hardest part of building life, and thus would be reasonably responsible for arranging the CHEMISTRY for all the initial conditions of life.
Complaining that we don't know the identity of some 'little man' and the nature of his 'magic' is a red herring and you should have gotten over using that argument in grade school.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2014 1:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2014 6:31 PM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 138 of 638 (724579)
04-18-2014 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by RAZD
04-18-2014 8:07 AM


Thanks for your help, again, Razd. I will incorporate the markups when I am ready to.
As for your 'recommended reading' lists, thanks, but I know those threads are there. I'm on this thread right now, and prefer to stick to the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by RAZD, posted 04-18-2014 8:07 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 139 of 638 (724581)
04-18-2014 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Ed67
04-18-2014 8:50 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
The amount of information stored in the Rocky Mountains is staggering. Does that mean they were intelligently designed?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Ed67, posted 04-18-2014 8:50 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Ed67, posted 04-18-2014 4:18 PM subbie has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 140 of 638 (724617)
04-18-2014 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by subbie
04-18-2014 9:38 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
"The amount of information stored in the Rocky Mountains is staggering."
Ok. I have the impression this concept of "information" has been discussed thoroughly already. Are we going to start again?
One thing to think about:
How many Rocky Mountain ranges would be required to make the instruction set contained in DNA that can build an organism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by subbie, posted 04-18-2014 9:38 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by subbie, posted 04-18-2014 4:44 PM Ed67 has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 141 of 638 (724618)
04-18-2014 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Ed67
04-18-2014 4:18 PM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
DNA does not contain the instruction set to build an organism, so your question is meaningless.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Ed67, posted 04-18-2014 4:18 PM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 8:29 AM subbie has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 142 of 638 (724672)
04-19-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Ed67
04-18-2014 8:50 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:
The 'ink' is the four bases.
But the four bases are the DNA molecule. The "code" is nothing more than the molecule itself. A water molecule carries information too, in the same way, only less of it. It's just a molecule.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Ed67, posted 04-18-2014 8:50 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 8:26 AM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 143 of 638 (724703)
04-19-2014 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Ed67
04-18-2014 9:12 AM


Complaining that we don't know the identity of some 'little man' and the nature of his 'magic' is a red herring and you should have gotten over using that argument in grade school.
I have in fact never used the imaginary argument that you attribute to me, not even in grade school.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Ed67, posted 04-18-2014 9:12 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 8:30 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 144 of 638 (724734)
04-20-2014 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by ringo
04-19-2014 11:41 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
But the four bases are the DNA molecule. The "code" is nothing more than the molecule itself. A water molecule carries information too, in the same way, only less of it. It's just a molecule.
If you're going to play dumb then there's no use having a discussion with you.
The 'code' is the SPECIFIC ARRANGEMENT of bases along the DNA molecule. But you knew that already, didn't you?
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 04-19-2014 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by RAZD, posted 04-20-2014 9:43 AM Ed67 has replied
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 04-22-2014 11:40 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 145 of 638 (724735)
04-20-2014 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by subbie
04-18-2014 4:44 PM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
DNA does not contain the instruction set to build an organism, so your question is meaningless.
if you say so...but you're going against commonly accepted science.
Would you care to elaborate?
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by subbie, posted 04-18-2014 4:44 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by subbie, posted 04-20-2014 11:11 AM Ed67 has not replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 146 of 638 (724736)
04-20-2014 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2014 6:31 PM


I have in fact never used the imaginary argument that you attribute to me, not even in grade school.
Didn't they teach you about honesty in kindergarten?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2014 6:31 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-20-2014 5:34 PM Ed67 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 147 of 638 (724744)
04-20-2014 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Ed67
04-20-2014 8:26 AM


DNA evolves
... the SPECIFIC ARRANGEMENT of bases ...
Is mathematically limited due to only having four bases -- there are only so many combinations of molecules sitting next to each other in the structure. Their "specific arrangement" can easily be the result of random variations and selection of structures that lead to increased survival and reproduction. What we see today is the product of over 3 billion years of evolution.
You are aware of what the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy is, yes?
The 'code' is ...
A perception rather than a fact. DNA operates more as a recipe than as a code, a recipe that says "take a pinch of this" and add it to "a smidgen of that" ... leaving lots of room for further variations and modifications during the development of an individual organism.
Again I refer you to Is ID properly pursued?. When you only see what you want to see you can mistake naturally derived artifact for artificial construct. The pattern observed in a kaleidoscope isn't real but an artifact of the means of observation.
The 'code'(recipe) is the SPECIFIC(evolved) ARRANGEMENT of bases along the DNA molecule. ...
Which we can observe is similar to other organisms in different degrees, and which we can observe changing and evolving.
In which we can observe markers in non-coding sections from viral inserts that demonstrate relatedness between species from common ancestors.
The viral inserts we share with Chimpanzees of the same formations and in the same locations show they were inherited from a common ancestor.
Similar inserts shared between Humans, Chimps and Gorillas of the same formations and in the same locations show they were inherited from a common ancestor.
And so it goes.
Edited by RAZD, : link

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 8:26 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 11:20 AM RAZD has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 148 of 638 (724750)
04-20-2014 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Ed67
04-20-2014 8:29 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:
if you say so...but you're going against commonly accepted science.
I think you are confusing popular misconception with commonly accepted science.
Ed67 writes:
Would you care to elaborate?
RAZD did quite well in the post immediately above this one.
Edited by subbie, : Tyop

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 8:29 AM Ed67 has not replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 149 of 638 (724752)
04-20-2014 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by RAZD
04-20-2014 9:43 AM


Re: DNA evolves
well Razd, your posts are always amusing, I'll give you that.
I just choose not to respond to silly assertions and baseless arguments. I hope you are not offended, but I'm waiting for anyone here to say anything INTELLEGENT about the origin of the blueprints found in the DNA molecule.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by RAZD, posted 04-20-2014 9:43 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by subbie, posted 04-20-2014 11:49 AM Ed67 has replied
 Message 158 by RAZD, posted 04-21-2014 8:38 AM Ed67 has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 150 of 638 (724753)
04-20-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Ed67
04-20-2014 11:20 AM


Re: DNA evolves
Ed67 writes:
the blueprints found in the DNA molecule.
Ah yes, the ever so popular and yet terribly misleading DNA as a blueprint analogy.
A blueprint specifies every single dimension and every single detail of a building, from height to floor spacing to wiring and plumbing. DNA doesn't actually specify very much at all. That's not how it functions. It in fact does NOT proscribe every single detail of what an organism is going to look like and does not contain detailed instructions about how to create an organism.
DNA is a wondrous molecule and there is a great deal to marvel at, there's really no need to rely on claims about it that are false.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 11:20 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 12:04 PM subbie has replied
 Message 154 by xongsmith, posted 04-20-2014 4:59 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
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