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Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 969 (724292)
04-15-2014 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Percy
04-15-2014 3:18 PM


Re: Back to earth
Those are just the pre-reqs. For undergraduates I would expect evolution to be included in the biology class.
But I'm looking at the curricula at UT Southwestern and Stanford, and I don't see many required courses that would have to be extensively about evolution. Perhaps a comparative medicine course when not taught by a science adverse professor? Definitely in the genetics course the topic would be unavoidable but that course does not seem to be mandatory.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Percy, posted 04-15-2014 3:18 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 212 of 969 (724293)
04-15-2014 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
04-15-2014 5:22 PM


Re: Calling AZPaul!
I hope he'll do it again, even if he does hate everything I believe and will say it as obnoxiously as possible.
We don't agree on all that much, but I do try to be fair. When you're right, you're right.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 5:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 5:40 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 220 of 969 (724314)
04-15-2014 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
04-15-2014 9:45 PM


Re: Why Is Evolution So Uncontroversial? Redux
he typical standard for falsifiability of the ToE given here is the idea of finding a mammal in the lower levels of the strata, where YECs also say they wouldn't have occurred.
Every time you post this, you reinforce the truth that you don't know what falsification means. No surprise there given you know nothing about the scientific method or any branch of science. But why keep proving it.
Falsification simply means that it is possible to conceive of an observation or experimental result that is utterly incompatible with the theory of evolution.
The unremarkable thing is that no observation anyone could ever imagine would, if verified, cause anyone to know that that creation was by not caused by supernatural means. All you have to is make up some more properties for water. That makes your beliefs utterly non-falsifiable.
However people have listed things, of which finding a mammal in the wrong layer is only one example, which are utterly incompatible with the theory of evolution.
Nothing standard about the oft repeated mammal example; but only one example is needed to demonstrate that the theory of evolution has at least the possibility of falsification.
Of course you will never be able to come up with a way, because science confuses you.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 9:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 225 of 969 (724322)
04-16-2014 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Faith
04-15-2014 5:40 PM


Re: Calling AZPaul!
At least he can think and follow an argument most of the time.
Interesting. I have no problem admitting that Dr. Adequate is sharper than I. But when it comes to analyzing the silly stuff you post, I haven't notice very many posters here having the least bit of difficulty finding the right places to laugh.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 5:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Faith, posted 04-16-2014 1:29 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 228 of 969 (724325)
04-16-2014 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Faith
04-16-2014 1:29 AM


Re: Calling AZPaul!
I was talking about AZPaul, who is a lot sharper than Dr. A.
The point still stands. It is the rare poster here who cannot follow your arguments.
Seriously, when we are not having discussions about you, I find that most posters have no trouble making themselves understood. Somehow the property of not having people follow your arguments, such as they are, is just about unique to you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Faith, posted 04-16-2014 1:29 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 04-16-2014 2:32 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 236 of 969 (724337)
04-16-2014 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Faith
04-16-2014 2:32 AM


Re: Calling AZPaul!
'm sure AZPaul would recognize that fact
Or perhaps, as is more likely, Arizona Paul would simply be more polite than I. AZPaul3, by and large, finds your positions just as silly as does everyone else.
What kind of science is it that you understand but none of the rest of us who have studied math, physics, geology, archaeology, history, engineering can follow? Is it like those dog whistles that I cannot hear?
I noticed that after about 963 people pointing it out, that you finally stopped being wrong about falsification, figured out what a cow meant, and stopped being confused about mammals, only to ask an even sillier question about geological layers. Perhaps a brief Sabbatical might be good to ponder why that kind of thing seems to happen so often to you.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 04-16-2014 2:32 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 969 (724364)
04-16-2014 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by RAZD
04-16-2014 11:21 AM


Re: a proper falsification test vs an undoable test
The trouble I have with the Precambrian Cow (or an Ordovician Aardvark) is that it is not a test you can specifically go out and do, it is something that could (if the ToE were false) just turn up on its own.
You could go on a fossil hunt, but let's say that you are unable to do that? So what? The question of falsification is not about what you personally can do, it is about what is possible and what has or has not been found.
and if this is the only test of the theory it seems rather naive to me to claim it is a true test that will result in the invalidation of the theory.
Except that it is not the only test. The answer is deliberately flip. Anyone, even a disbeliever, who if familiar with the science ought to be able to come up with their own falsification. But someone ranting about the TOE being just mind games is not that person. I would not spend 2 minutes trying to explain a scientific topic to Faith. You do seem to have that kind of patience, but I doubt you can get any better results.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by RAZD, posted 04-16-2014 11:21 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by RAZD, posted 04-19-2014 4:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 252 of 969 (724377)
04-16-2014 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Faith
04-16-2014 2:58 PM


Re: You can't disprove a construction built out of hot air
NN thinks I misunderstood the cow example, I did not, he misunderstood me. And you also apparently missed how I know AZ despises me.
You quite clearly did misunderstand the cow example. It may well be that your question about the cow standing for all mammals was not a misunderstanding, but in that case you used sarcasm, something which was quite easily missed when used in a print medium.
But it is quite clear from your arguments that you were missing the point of what falsification was and how a misplaced "cow" fit into that. Your arguments that both TOE and Creationism predicted no cow were simply off the mark.
One mistake that I did make was assuming that you had not made the mistake that RAZD also appears to have made. I was quite wrong about that.
Perhaps if I had another lifetime to put to the task I'd give some attention to the supposed upward changes in fossilized flora and fauna within the rock that are taken as examples of evolutionary change over time,
If you had another lifetime and were a completely different person, you might do that. But you aren't capable of doing any of that, and it is not the lack of time that limits you. You are allergic to scientific inquiry of all kinds. Such inquiries require the skills that you currently label as fantasy and pure mental whatever. I doubt you could find the open end of a test tube with both hands and a pipette.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 04-16-2014 2:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 372 of 969 (724572)
04-18-2014 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Faith
04-16-2014 5:56 PM


And for NN: I've always been considered to have a good scientific mind.
A person with a scientific mind who cannot read a scientific paper? Please. You give yourself a B grade for your knowledge of geology. That's evidence of your pee-poor standards for what constitutes scientific knowledge. Not believing what other real geologists think is no excuse for not understanding it. But you play that card all the time.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 04-16-2014 5:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 416 of 969 (724695)
04-19-2014 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by RAZD
04-19-2014 4:43 PM


Re: Back to the topic: a proper falsification test vs an undoable test
So this test has a very low probability of being actualized even if a precambrian cow existed.
Right. But what you argue is irrelevant to the question whether the theory of evolution is not falsifiable and hence not science. You are addressing some other question.
And it actually turns out that most answers to the question, is TOE falsifiable are going to be beyond the ability of the non-scientifically inclined people because the theory is well grounded.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by RAZD, posted 04-19-2014 4:43 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 418 of 969 (724697)
04-19-2014 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Percy
04-19-2014 10:54 AM


Re: Faith knows THE TRUTH
She's arguing that it happened naturally, obeying scientific laws. Of course, she thinks that scientific laws include magic water and magic rotating layers and so forth.
Faith does not think she's invoking magic; she just does not know any science. She claims to be an expert on stuff like geology without having studied the topic because she has a 'Fine Scientific Mind'. She grades herself as knowing 80 per cent of the topic, and then excuses herself for not understanding the parts with which she disagrees. She makes similar excuses for herself when it comes to biology. She cannot read a scientific paper on any subject, yet she feels uniquely positioned to declare subjects 'unfalsifiable' without looking at a single experiment. It is a challenge to express the level of hubris that comprises such an attitude, but I'm going to try.
Very few posters here, certainly including you and I, but possibly excluding people like Dr. Adequate and the actual professionals on the subject have any business expressing a serious opinion on how geology works with consulting a reference. The list of people who should be backing up what they claim they know surely includes Faith. You might drawn on a knowledge of physics, engineering, or chemistry and make some relevant comment, but Faith cannot even do that.
Yet she does not even consult Creation Science or Biblical sources before spouting off pure nonsense. The idea that water sorted living creatures into the current fossil record is not merely wrong; holding such a belief and calling it scientific is beyond a level stupidity any of us needs to excuse as ignorance. As you've recognized, there may be no point in spending much effort trying to dissuade a lurker from that belief. But at least we can justify doing so for a lurker who is just repeating what he's heard.
But it is not productive to engage the type of arrogance on display here. First this ridiculous crap is just a rehash of the same non-working ideas we've seen before. Secondly geology is not even on topic. The sole reason for having these kinds of discussions is that they are entertaining/interesting to the participants. And to a point they are entertaining for me. But at some point, I can see that it is entertainment at Faith's expense. And when it gets to that point, perhaps it is just too cruel to be take it much further.
It is not my call as to when things have gone too far, and it's not like we are hampering other discussion. And I am still laughing.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Percy, posted 04-19-2014 10:54 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 427 of 969 (724720)
04-20-2014 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by RAZD
04-19-2014 4:16 PM


Re: prediction: nested hierarchies; anti-prediction: not nested hierarchies
If descent with modification were not true then nested hierarchies would not form, and instead there must be some other pattern formed.
That is not correct. There is simply no indirect, after the fact evidence that could not be produced by magical finger snapping or last Thursday type creation processes. God may just have like keeping his creation well organized.
But while God could have made the universe look evolved, evolution could not reasonably have done somethings God might have done.
The short answer is that you seem to be claiming that the inverse of a correct premise must also be a correct premise. I'm sure there is a formal name for such reasoning, but I don't remember it, and I am not going to look it up.
Okay. It is Denying the antecedent. P => Q does not require that not P => not Q.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by RAZD, posted 04-19-2014 4:16 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 494 of 969 (724895)
04-22-2014 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 488 by Coyote
04-21-2014 10:45 PM


Re: Back on topic
You just seem to have no talent for it, and perhaps should take this into consideration when you tell working scientists, and in fact whole scientific professions, that they don't know anything.
Lot's of people have no particular talent for or inclination to do science. There's no shame in it. But most adults in that population are well aware of their limitations. Even most YECs don't go so far as to delude themselves into thinking they have great scientific minds, regardless of how sure they are that scientists are wrong. Most of them just cite the Bible and are done with it.
God is all powerful, yet a few of those with FSMs (fine scientific minds) are loathe to say that he used much of his might after the first few days of creation. No real logic for that.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Coyote, posted 04-21-2014 10:45 PM Coyote has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 497 of 969 (724933)
04-22-2014 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by RAZD
04-22-2014 4:35 PM


Re: There are scientific arguments against young earth creationism
Now consider that there are many things younger than the earth that can be found ... and all they show is that the earth is at least as old as these things but could be older.
Coincidentally, the age of the earth is taken up in this weeks episode of Cosmos.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by RAZD, posted 04-22-2014 4:35 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 502 of 969 (725415)
04-27-2014 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 501 by Percy
04-26-2014 7:14 AM


Re: Percy bogusity from message 400 and 412
To specifically rebut your implied accusation that an ancient Mississippi delta is devoid of supporting evidence here's a brief excerpt from the abstract of K-Ar Age Studies of Mississippi and Other River Sediments:
Perhaps the issue here is that you are debating someone who rejects all of the science necessary to have a discussion. You have introduced evidence based on radiometric dating. But we all know that kind of evidence won't make the least impression on any creationist. Creationist don't use dating techniques other than Bible geology for anything that happened prior to the last two thousand years. And they aren't going to accept your dating either.
Whether or not we think it is reasonable, when you debate someone who rejects the idea that atomic nuclei haven't always behaved the same, you have a tough road to travel. You can try citing the evidence that those things actually have been constant. RAZD likes citing SN1987A (I do too!) Others like pointing to the Oklo natural reactor evidence, but creationists just tune that stuff out.
Bible geology should have been 'Bible genealogy'
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Percy, posted 04-26-2014 7:14 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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