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Author Topic:   Could RNA start life?
ringo
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Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(4)
Message 22 of 105 (682809)
12-05-2012 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dayalanand roy
12-04-2012 12:50 AM


dayalanand roy writes:

When there was no life, why did nature invent a storage system to store the information about sometning (Life) which was still not existent, and hence there was no information to store.


Sometimes "information" is just an accident. When an animal leaves tracks in the snow, they contain information about what kind of animal he was, which direction he was going, how fast he was going etc. But he didn't invent snow just to convey that information.

Information is only information when it's used as information.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 30 of 105 (683108)
12-07-2012 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by dayalanand roy
12-06-2012 5:52 AM


Re: Re RNA
dayalanand roy writes:

However, the difference between the animal trail in snow and RNA is that we have to derive information from the former and it is a passive information, but RNA is solely a copy, and an active copy of information, whether we derive or not, it will deliver its information to the protein synthesising machinery.


The information in the snow is there whether whether anybody uses it or not; same with the RNA. It can be used for some purpose "because it's there". It isn't necessary for somebody or something to put it there for that purpose.

Sometimes necessity is the mother of invention but other times new uses are found for an existing invention.


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ringo
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Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 52 of 105 (724359)
04-16-2014 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Ed67
04-15-2014 9:14 PM


Re: Good Question
Ed67 writes:

But they fulfill their PR purpose in the meantime...


You flatter yourself. Very few scientific developments become public knowledge at all.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 56 of 105 (724459)
04-17-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Ed67
04-17-2014 12:34 AM


Re: Good Question
Ed67 writes:

These are the 'discoveries' that end up in magazines and newspapers enough to give the public the impression that scientists 'pretty much know' that life originated by natural causes.


You referred to a "PR purpose". My point is that the scientists have no "PR purpose". Scientists are notoriously bad at PR. That's why evolution and abiogenesis are so poorly understood.

The ones with a "PR purpose" are the magazines and newspapers and they don't care what they publish as long as it sells magazines and newspapers.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 67 of 105 (724674)
04-19-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Ed67
04-17-2014 9:48 PM


Re: Good Question
Ed67 writes:

But where do you think the journalists GET their incessant stories about the 'new discoveries' that all but prove abiogenesis? Do you think the press has moles in the scientific community that steal these 'secrets'?


I didn't say anything about secrets. But yes, it is pretty much the press seeking out stories rather than the scientific community seeking publicity.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 70 of 105 (724678)
04-19-2014 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Ed67
04-19-2014 11:58 AM


Re: Progress made in baby steps ...
Ed67 writes:

Science has to show how the DNA code sequences needed to build life COULD have originated by naturalistic means.


If a DNA or RNA molecule can exist - and it can - then there is no question about whether it "could" have originated by naturalistic means.

Ed67 writes:

And so far it hasn't, though scientists have been trying for over 50 years.


Scientists aren't trying to show that it "could" happen. That's a foregone conclusion. They're trying to figure out a pathway by which it does happen. When/if they do, it won't necessarily be the same pathway by which it did happen.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 75 of 105 (724916)
04-22-2014 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Ed67
04-20-2014 9:36 PM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
Ed67 writes:

Is it possible that intelligence can exist without a living physical body to sustain it?


There's your problem: If not, the "Intelligent Designer" would have to be an alien lifeform and not some "god". Then who/what designed it?
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 87 of 105 (725143)
04-24-2014 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Ed67
04-24-2014 1:17 PM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
Ed67 writes:

Is it possible that intelligence can exist without a living physical body to sustain it?

If so, how would you know? If an intelligence existed separate from physical life, how would you detect it?


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 89 of 105 (725146)
04-24-2014 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Ed67
04-24-2014 1:32 PM


Re: Detection of a supernatural designer?
Ed67 writes:

By the artifacts it left on the earth.


You can detect artifacts but how do you connect them to some undetectable non-physical entity?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 1:32 PM Ed67 has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 91 of 105 (725151)
04-24-2014 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Ed67
04-24-2014 1:41 PM


Re: Detection of a supernatural designer?
Ed67 writes:

Those were the only kind of intelligent entities around at the time, apparently....


Well, no. Non-physical intelligent beings have never been "apparent".

Ed67 writes:

... we now have a full overview of how the replication system and cell operate.


You have an over-optimistic idea of fulllness. We have a pretty good idea of how the replication system and cell operate but we are learning more about it every day. We do have a full enough understanding to know that no intelligence was necessary to set it in motion.

Ed67 writes:

Think about it:
All this design was somehow inserted into the first living thing.


Think about this: All any intelligence can do is manipulate existing processes.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16824
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 94 of 105 (725163)
04-24-2014 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Ed67
04-24-2014 2:34 PM


Re: Detection of a supernatural designer?
Ed67 writes:

And what if there is a higher intelligence than humans? Someone intelligent enough to construct life from chemicals using the laws of chemistry and physics?


What if there is? That's irrelevant to the question of whether or not chemistry and physics could do it on their own. The answer to that question and this thread is: There's no reason to think that intelligence is necessary.
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 Message 93 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 2:34 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
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