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Author Topic:   Semiotic argument for ID
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2277
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 121 of 223 (725114)
04-24-2014 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Taq
04-24-2014 11:09 AM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
Complex specified information is the measurement of a creationists incredulity as to the production of modern genomes through mutation and selection.

CSI really stands for Creationist Standard Incredulity.

Oh, now I get it!! Thanks.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Taq, posted 04-24-2014 11:09 AM Taq has not yet responded

    
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 708 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 122 of 223 (725115)
04-24-2014 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Ed67
04-21-2014 8:41 PM


Re: Do all self-replicating molecules require recorded information.
Ed67 writes:

I wasn't aware that a chemical self-replicator that could exist on prebiotic earth was discovered or synthesized. Would you care to back up your statement with citations?

The ability of simple molecules to replicate themselves (and to do so with variants that also replicate themselves) has been established since 1990. T. Tjivikua , P. Ballester , J. Rebek Jr.....

They require no biosphere. Neither does RNA. RNA replicators have been discovered that reproduce and evolve without DNA, proteins, or anything else to do with life. Self-replicating RNAs

I wasn't aware that any intelligent designer that could exist on prebiotic earth was discovered or synthesized. Would you care to back up such a claim with citations?


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 Message 55 by Ed67, posted 04-21-2014 8:41 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5365
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 123 of 223 (725116)
04-24-2014 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Tanypteryx
04-24-2014 11:05 AM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
Jorge at TWeb once defined complex specified information as information that is both complex and specified. Looks as if our local pal is from the same mold.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-24-2014 11:05 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 223 (725120)
04-24-2014 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Ed67
04-24-2014 10:45 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
We're not talking about how it COMES into existence in the present day; we're talking about how it ORIGINALLY came into existence.

Well, sort of. You said that "all complex specified information has been found to have an intelligent source". But we have present day DNA, which you are claiming is CSI, that we can see coming into existence, without an intelligent source, through the process of replication. So, there are ways to get CSI, today, via sources that don't require intelligence today.

Now, that doesn't solve the problem of how the original strands of DNA came into existence, but we can see that the processes involved today do not require intelligence today.

I think it was built as part of the entire organism by an intelligent designer.

Like, an ancient proto-organism that all life today evolved from?

Only as an entire system can the life process exist, so I think it was assembled as a whole system originally.

Viruses and prions contain some of the life processes, like replication, but are not alive, so we can see that partial systems can exist.

There are self-assembling molecules that are not alive. And there are self-replicating molecules that are not alive.

We are moving towards an explanation of the emergence of DNA without needing to point to an intelligent designer.

"complex specified information" is a term in the English language understandable by English speakers.

What makes it information? How is it specified? And at what point does it get to be considered complex?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 10:45 AM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 138 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 3:25 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 125 of 223 (725121)
04-24-2014 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Ed67
04-24-2014 10:47 AM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
I can't help it if your English is 'challenged'.

As a matter of fact, you are exclusively responsible for the fantasy world in your head.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 10:47 AM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 126 of 223 (725134)
04-24-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Ed67
04-24-2014 10:27 AM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
"complex specified information" is a term in the English language understandable by English speakers. It means exactly what it says.

In order for someone to understand a word or phrase, it has to have operational value for them.

That is: someone who knows what "pink" means can answer the question "Is this object pink?" His definition acts as a criterion. Someone who understands what "elephant" means can answer questions such as "how many elephants are there in this picture?" (so long as he can also count). Someone who knows what "three" means can tell me if I'm holding up three fingers (so long as he also knows what "finger" means, and so can recognize a finger). And so forth.

On the other hand, the average English-speaking person would not be able to answer the question "How much CSI is in the sequence AGTCGATGCTAGTTTGCA", or even if there is any. Someone who doesn't even know it when they see it (and know it's absent when they don't see it) doesn't know what it means.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 10:27 AM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 2:43 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 1560 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 127 of 223 (725162)
04-24-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Dr Adequate
04-24-2014 12:01 PM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
DA writes:

On the other hand, the average English-speaking person would not be able to answer the question "How much CSI is in the sequence AGTCGATGCTAGTTTGCA", or even if there is any. Someone who doesn't even know it when they see it (and know it's absent when they don't see it) doesn't know what it means.

Okay, have it your way. I'll use a different term in the future.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 12:01 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2014 2:47 PM Ed67 has responded
 Message 130 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 3:01 PM Ed67 has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 223 (725165)
04-24-2014 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Ed67
04-24-2014 2:43 PM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
Okay, have it your way. I'll use a different term in the future.

That's a tacit admission that you cannot define Complex Specified Information even though you were acting like it was self-evident earlier.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 2:43 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 3:01 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 1560 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 129 of 223 (725169)
04-24-2014 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by New Cat's Eye
04-24-2014 2:47 PM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
CS writes:

That's a tacit admission that you cannot define Complex Specified Information even though you were acting like it was self-evident earlier.



What a curious remark. I was merely ceding the fact that 'CSI' now has a special meaning in common parlance, and I shouldn't use it generically any more.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2014 2:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 130 of 223 (725170)
04-24-2014 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Ed67
04-24-2014 2:43 PM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
Okay, have it your way. I'll use a different term in the future.

Well if you're going to use a different term for the same thing, then we would still have a problem, since the difficulty arises not because of the choice of words to describe the thing, but in the difficulty of identifying the thing the words are meant to denote.

But perhaps you will use this different term to mean a different thing. We'll see.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 2:43 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 3:10 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 1560 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 131 of 223 (725172)
04-24-2014 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by New Cat's Eye
04-24-2014 11:28 AM


CS on CSI
CS writes:

So, there are ways to get CSI, today, via sources that don't require intelligence today.

CS, a little common sense would tell you that it takes intelligence to create a system that runs on its own without intelligence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2014 11:28 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 3:09 PM Ed67 has responded
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2014 3:19 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 132 of 223 (725173)
04-24-2014 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:07 PM


Re: CS on CSI
CS, a little common sense would tell you that it takes intelligence to create a system that runs on its own without intelligence.

A little common sense would tell him that the Earth is flat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 3:07 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 3:12 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 1560 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 133 of 223 (725174)
04-24-2014 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Dr Adequate
04-24-2014 3:01 PM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
DA writes:

But perhaps you will use this different term to mean a different thing. We'll see.

Nope. Specified Complexity will do. It's easier to type, anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 3:01 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 3:14 PM Ed67 has not yet responded
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 1560 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 134 of 223 (725175)
04-24-2014 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Dr Adequate
04-24-2014 3:09 PM


Re: CS on CSI
DA writes:

A little common sense would tell him that the Earth is flat.

I take it you DISAGREE that it takes intelligence to create a system that runs without intelligence?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 3:09 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 135 of 223 (725176)
04-24-2014 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:10 PM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
Nope. Specified Complexity will do. It's easier to type, anyway.

Then you still have the same problem --- you need some sort of operational definition. Otherwise it doesn't mean anything.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 3:10 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
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