Summations Only

Yaro, Where does it state that God (God of the bible) created evil? In my understanding God created free beings that in utilizing their freedom chose to commit evil acts. If God chose to create beings that could not do evil that would mean they are not free beings.SincerelyBlue

So He says. How is doing whatever He wants not selfish? Oxymoron. We ask; if He wants us to have it, He gives. There's nothing"joint" about it; it's totally one-sided.When you don't get what you want, you comfort yourself by saying you didn't really, really, really want it anyway. Sour grapes.

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you dont understand.

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No, I don't. But I'd be willing to entertain any evidence you might have that supports your conjecture. Do you have any evidence that supports your conjecture..?

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Communion is better for all of us.

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How do you know that's the case..? How do you know you have communion with an invisible deity, for which there is no evidence..? How do you know you're not simply communing with yourself, in your own head, or worse communing with Satan..?

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He is not selfish about it.

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Are you referring to the same deity written about in the Old Testament. Because if you are that God appears to be incredibly selfish, insecure, childish, and vain.

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not something He makes happen.

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But He could make it happen if He chose to, because He's omnipotent, right..? So, it's His decision not to make it happen.

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We ask for it. Its a joint decision.

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If you're required to beg/ask without the benefit of convincing evidence, and then under threat of torture it isn't a joint decision at all. It's similar to the Mafia boss who threatens to break your legs unless you pay for protection. That's a joint decision too, according to your thinking. It can only be a free and fair decision if there are no threats or promises, and that's not the case is it..?Edited by MFFJM2, : No reason given.

Phat,You have to realize the people in your current discussion clearly don't understand biblical record or if they do they don't accept it, nor do they seem to appreciate a revelation from God. Most likely, based on what I am seeing they are the people who believe in everything from nothing. Moving forward, I would like to communicate that I absolutely agree with you Phat. I have also had plenty of revelations from God. You're not alone in receiving revelations from God. This is not a science, this is the supernatural. IF science could explain it, it has yet to explain it. These are personal experiences that are meant to be personal experiences too. Anyone who has read Matthew 6:5-6 would understand that. 5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

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6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

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Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

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Phat, I disagree with you on this point, at least with what you are communicating, you need to quote verses otherwise the logic behind what you are saying can't be argumentatively biblical. Using verses from the bible does help in cooling and limiting rules of engagement on a topic.Example:
In my view God does reward but it is always within his judgement, within his will. IT is not completely (not selfish at all but I kept it in the context for those who feel it is selfish) selfish because God is granting to give you eternal life, but within the confine of what a ultimate being would decide is good/bad. God rewards based on the freedom/desire to do his will. ALSO it is not us being transformed by him. IT is you being transformed by you.IF I don't quote any verses to support the above, it is not biblical argumentatively. It is just my vantage. While I can believe it is biblical, which is why I would claim it, I am not doing a good job of communicating biblical points. People will argue back and forth this way for hours. IT is very useful to atheists but very useless for theists. You have to bring them onto the same ground by using verses. Don't go into their territory and debate logic using their logic in biblical points. They don't have the same logic. Using verses limits the argument to that verse. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Clearly in the above verse this is not Jesus forcing you to change. He is just merely speaking to you. Explaining to you the path to God. IT is still your choice.

Ringo,You quote the verse in the KJV. There are various other versions. I would conclude that what is meant by evil in the KJV, or ra' in the original language is "calamity" due to the context of the prior and following verses. The commentary also leads us down the path in understanding that "evil" or ra' is mere punishment. Again calamity is what is meant in that verse.Here is a list of other translations:Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things. 45:7 NASB The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

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45:7 NIV I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

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45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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Here is a Hebrew Lexicon with the definition of ra'. It has several meanings.H7451 - ra - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (nasb20)Edited by Blue, : VersesEdited by Blue, : LinkEdited by Blue, : ErrEdited by Blue, : Err

Yes, that's the standard apologetics.Note the context though that God intends to use Cyrus as the human instrument of "mere punishment" against Babylon. From God's viewpoint and Israel's viewpoint, Babylon is evil and Cyrus is good but from Babylon's viewpoint, Cyrus is evil.Calamity is in the eye of the beholder.

ringo,Personally I would listen to GOD as to what is evil. Feel free to pray on it OR if that is to difficult for you, lets review history.Edited by Blue, : AddEdited by Blue, : Err

But what is evil??Is the Dinocampus coccinellae evil for inserting her offspring in to a live lady bug, the larva then eat their way out of the live ladybug, forming a cocoon under it, zombifying the ladybug to act as its protector until it dies.Now if the wasp is not evil cause its just an animal and that is how it reproduces, is the designer of such a creature evil for making it reproduce by causing horrendous suffering to ladybugs?

The only evil that is written about in the Bible, as far as I know, is relative to human beings. I don't think Christ died for bugs to be saved for their sins. I think you need to ask your self this question. Can man decide what is evil, or should god decide what is evil? Man? Or the creator of living things? IF your answer is man should be the decision maker, then what is morality? Is morality just a vote? Is morality a dictation from a powerful man? Is morality money? Honestly, seems rather arrogant for man to decide man is the ultimate being within 400 light years (hawking).Edited by Blue, : AddEdited by Blue, : Add

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Personally I would listen to GOD as to what is evil.

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Is that because you lack a moral compass of your own..? If you have no morality except for what God gives you how do you know God is good..? Was slavery good, because God approved of it..? What about child abuse, human sacrifice, genocide, murder, rape, pillage, to mention just a few..? Are you suggesting that these things are moral, because your God supports all of them.

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Feel free to pray on it

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Prayer is a waste of time, even if you believe in your deity, and a colossal waste of time if you don't.

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OR if that is to difficult for you,

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Mumbling a few words to yourself is not difficult in the least, but it is a waste of time. Please provide your evidence for the efficacy of prayer.

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lets review history.

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Sure, what history would you like to review..? How about the lack of historical evidence for Moses..?

Blue wrote

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You have to realize the people in your current discussion clearly don't understand biblical record

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What record..? The Bible doesn't provide an historical record, according to historians.

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or if they do they don't accept it,

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Bingo. Historians don't accept the Bible for its historicity, so why should anyone else..?

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nor do they seem to appreciate a revelation from God.

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I would if you could provide some mechanism to differentiate said revelation from a delusion/hallucination. Can you provide any such mechanism..?

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Most likely, based on what I am seeing they are the people who believe in everything from nothing.

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This is called a Strawman Argument. I don't know anyone who thinks this way, except for theists, because their God is something that came from nothing.

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Moving forward, I would like to communicate that I absolutely agree with you Phat.

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Of course you do; people who share the same delusion often agree with each other.

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You're not alone in receiving revelations from God.

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The mental hospitals and psych wards are full of people who claim to have had these revelations.

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This is not a science

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No, it's not. Science requires evidence. Science provides testable results. Science is peer reviewed.

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this is the supernatural.

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For which there is not a scintilla of evidence. Saying something is so, doesn't make it so. The James Randi Educational Foundation is offering $1,000,000 to anyone who can provide evidence of the supernatural.

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IF science could explain it, it has yet to explain it.

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Delusional thinking has been explained for over 100 years. However, insofar as the supernatural is concerned, science cannot explain that which does not exist.

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These are personal experiences that are meant to be personal experiences too.

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If that's the case why are you all so intent on telling us all about them..? Why is Lourdes a shrine..? How can you tell the difference between a genuine revelation and a delusion..?

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Anyone who has read Matthew 6:5-6 would understand that.

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Matthew 6:5-6 is about prayer, not revelation. Now how about providing us with the slightest reason we should believe you've had a genuine revelation, and are not simply delusional..?

I don't have time to pick through your list of rubbish, but I will argue a few of them. I will take time later to argue the other points if I must. Please post your sources for "child abuse, human sacrifice, genocide, murder, rape, pillage" if you wish to argue them.I do draw morality from within the bible but this does not mean I don't have a sense of current cultural morality. Honestly a huge list, if not all, of moral things I disagree with or agree with are congruent from within biblical terms. One could argue that I learned those moral rules because of culture, or one could argue that I just feel this way. In both cases neither is proof that we don't draw moral codes without God. We can't prove, if we have some instinctual moral code that it is not from God. Why evil occurs (from an atheist vantage) is not proven. This is actually a huge topic but I will leave that for you to think about.As for slavery in the bible, slaves under hebrew/jewish law were treated very well. In fact most of them were treated better than those slaves here in the USA to the 17 trillion dollar debt/the elite/corp. IF you think Americans are free you are insane. We are privileged. And it is only a matter of time before those great privileges are reduced. I always love it when they use LAW to give freedom. LOL. Not in my life. Prayer has been extremely helpful. I don't ask for to much, most of the time it is thank you. I will say I am blessed on so many levels. It is very strange how well life has gone. How about you prove you are mumbling a few words to your self. Oh wait, you cant prove it. Even on a scientific level you could form a theory. I would love to see a theory that shows prayer is useless. My evidence has been given to me, all through my life. Seems like Phat agrees. Perhaps the other 33%/or 2.3 billion of 7 billion people on planet earth are crazy to believe in the power of prayer to Christ. I don't need to provide it to you. IF you want to see how prayer can help you, you need to pray with all your heart showing that God and Christ do exist. IF you pray without thinking those things, it is pointless. Perhaps that is your problem. If you don't know how to pray look below. Let me remind you, those faithful people permeate all parts of society from the average person to those working in physics, running companies, etc. Matt 6:9-13
6 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

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10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

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11 Give us this day our daily bread.

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12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

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13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.Like that of Alexander The Great? We have no more proof of Alexander The Great than we do for Moses. Even if there was more evidence, it is still just an argument.You do know that lack of evidence does not compute to does not exist. Perhaps you didn't realize that evidence is not proof? Take for example the fossil record. Maybe God created life via evolution? My point, evidence does not speak, it is interpreted based on other evidence that is known. Then over time, those interpretations change. I always love it when they realize we don't know where the universe came from. We are lost. I also love it when they claim they know where the universe came from. You do know that inflation is a joke, just like the bb. There is absolutely no evidence for inflation. If you need help finding the information for my claims just ask. Look up the electric universe/thunderbolts.info. Refer to their interpretations of the cosmic microwave background radiation and further their interpretations of redshift or the doppler effect.Edited by Blue, : errEdited by Blue, : errEdited by Blue, : err

Ok. I can see your nutz. Done talking to you.