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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 218 of 591 (725302)
04-25-2014 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
04-25-2014 1:03 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Phat writes:
Technically, this would not support evidence, but it would explain why some think different from others.
There's no mystery why some think differently from others. The ones who wish God had their backs are ignoring the evidence, which plainly shows that He doesn't. They even go so far as to make excuses for Him: "You can't tempt God." That's right; you can't tempt Him to have your back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 04-25-2014 1:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Phat, posted 04-26-2014 3:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 222 of 591 (725555)
04-28-2014 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Phat
04-26-2014 3:33 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Phat writes:
This is where so many people make a wrong turn and fail to ask for directions.
I'm talking about the people who do ask God for directions and don't get any - or get bad ones. You know very well that God doesn't give you what you ask for most of the time. So how can you say He has your back?
Phat writes:
They assume that in this vast universe---for now---humanity and human wisdom---relying on each other----is all we have.
It's not an assumption; it's a conclusion based in the evidence. You can't rely on God to do it for you. Even Noah had to build his own ark.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Phat, posted 04-26-2014 3:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Phat, posted 05-04-2014 3:40 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 224 of 591 (725933)
05-04-2014 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Phat
05-04-2014 3:40 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Phat writes:
He only begins to give us the desires of our heart once our heart is transformed...by Him....and we no longer live for ourselves but for Him.
So He only gives us what we want when we want what He wants to give us?
That's what I've been saying: He doesn't have our backs; He has His own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Phat, posted 05-04-2014 3:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 05-04-2014 4:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 227 of 591 (725936)
05-04-2014 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
05-04-2014 4:08 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Phat writes:
Communion is better for all of us.
So He says.
Phat writes:
He is not selfish about it.
How is doing whatever He wants not selfish?
Phat writes:
We ask for it. Its a joint decision.
Oxymoron. We ask; if He wants us to have it, He gives. There's nothing"joint" about it; it's totally one-sided.
When you don't get what you want, you comfort yourself by saying you didn't really, really, really want it anyway. Sour grapes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 05-04-2014 4:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 230 of 591 (725939)
05-04-2014 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Blue
05-04-2014 4:22 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
Where does it state that God (God of the bible) created evil?
quote:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Blue, posted 05-04-2014 4:22 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Blue, posted 05-04-2014 5:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 233 of 591 (725944)
05-04-2014 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Blue
05-04-2014 5:38 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
I would conclude that what is meant by evil in the KJV, or ra' in the original language is "calamity" due to the context of the prior and following verses.
Yes, that's the standard apologetics.
Note the context though that God intends to use Cyrus as the human instrument of "mere punishment" against Babylon. From God's viewpoint and Israel's viewpoint, Babylon is evil and Cyrus is good but from Babylon's viewpoint, Cyrus is evil.
Calamity is in the eye of the beholder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Blue, posted 05-04-2014 5:38 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Blue, posted 05-04-2014 5:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 242 of 591 (725984)
05-05-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Blue
05-04-2014 5:54 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
Personally I would listen to GOD as to what is evil.
How do you know you can trust God?
Blue writes:
... lets review history.
Yes, let's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Blue, posted 05-04-2014 5:54 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 8:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 243 of 591 (725985)
05-05-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Blue
05-04-2014 10:11 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
Can man decide what is evil, or should god decide what is evil?
St. Paul said that man can decide:
quote:
Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
Blue writes:
IF your answer is man should be the decision maker, then what is morality?
Morality is what is written on our hearts. The question is: Who does the writing? God or society?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Blue, posted 05-04-2014 10:11 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 8:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 261 of 591 (726073)
05-06-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Blue
05-05-2014 8:34 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
ringo writes:
How do you know you can trust God
You learn to trust God via prayer/revelation.
That's a glib answer but it doesn't work. Why would you pray to a god unless you thought you could trust him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 8:34 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 262 of 591 (726074)
05-06-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Blue
05-05-2014 8:44 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
Weather or not the law is in their hearts is just a point that even gentiles will follow the law not knowing it persay.
What Romans 2:14-15 says quite plainly is that man can and does decide what is evil, based on his conscience. That's what you asked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 8:44 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 263 of 591 (726076)
05-06-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Blue
05-05-2014 10:27 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
You know how gravity works right? This does not mean you know the theory, it just means you understand how gravity works. This is the same for revelations.
How do you know that gravity isn't caused by Satan trying to drag us down into Hell? How do you know whom the revelation is from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 10:27 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 290 of 591 (726253)
05-07-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Blue
05-06-2014 2:10 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
We don't have any information, as far as I know, from the Bible or otherwise that is suggestive Satan is responsible for gravity.
That's exactly the point. You don't have any information from outside the Bible. Your ideas about Satan are entirely subjective whereas our ideas about gravity are objective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:10 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 12:07 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 291 of 591 (726255)
05-07-2014 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Blue
05-06-2014 2:37 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
You do realize trust is always based on faith.
Well, trust is often based on past performance. If you trust your wife not to cheat on you it's because he hasn't cheated on you before.
Can you trust God to give you what you want because He's always given you what you wanted before? Most likely not. God has a track record of doing exactly what He wants to do without regard to your wishes.
Blue writes:
The idea that your observations give you security is merely faith.
I'm glad you use the phrase "merely faith". There may be hope for you yet. I have a low opinion of faith too.
Blue writes:
What if the interpretation of the observations is wrong?
Again, that's exactly the point. What if your interpretation of the observation/revelation is wrong? What if Satan is really the good guy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:37 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Blue, posted 05-08-2014 6:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 292 of 591 (726256)
05-07-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Blue
05-06-2014 2:54 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
I interpret it to read, we will decide what is evil and we will be judged regardless of what we decide.
Yes, we decide what is evil - and if God or some other alien entity "judges" us, then we decide whether the judgement is evil or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:54 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Blue, posted 05-08-2014 6:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 317 of 591 (726506)
05-09-2014 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Blue
05-08-2014 6:14 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
Remember God is going to grant you eternal life in a existence that God is creating.
What makes you think I want eternal life under God's terms?
Blue writes:
I was not saying faith is a negative or a unreliable practice.
I am.
Blue writes:
The argument that Satan could be the person answering my prayers does not make sense especially if you read any satanic book.
How do you know the "satanic books" aren't sponsored by God to make Satan look bad?
Blue writes:
Why would Satan teach via revelation that Jesus is the son of God?
I asked you, "What if Satan is really the good guy?" It's (suppsedly) God who's "revealing" to you that Jesus is His son. If God is the bad guy then that revelation is likely to be false.
Blue writes:
Your thoughts that Satan is answering my prayers would make sense if the revelations didn't occur.
Where did I say that Satan was answering your prayers? I thought my point was that nobody is answering your prayers.
Blue writes:
It seems as if you are arguing that faith based claims are unreliable and therefor false.
Likely to be false, yes. Every religion has its own faith-baed claims and its own revelations. They don't all agree so at least some of them must be false. Yours are just as likely to be false as anybody else's.
Blue writes:
What is real in Science is not always REAL just like what is real in revelation is not always REAL.
The difference is that science is self-correcting; it is always changing its picture of reality. Religion, on the other hand, is notoriously resistant to change.
Blue writes:
When God's plan is complete Evil will be blotted out.
So we've come full circle. Where did evil come from in the first place? What exists that God did not create?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Blue, posted 05-08-2014 6:14 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Blue, posted 05-10-2014 11:30 AM ringo has replied
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 05-10-2014 2:48 PM ringo has replied

  
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