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Author Topic:   Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1960
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.5


(2)
Message 316 of 1034 (692726)
03-06-2013 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by NoNukes
03-06-2013 8:13 PM


Re: Jeer bait
It appears that she has spent her time on her mantra "evolution is going down, diversity is disappearing, there are no mutations."

Not once has she set foot in a biology or genetics lab.

She could have actually done some actual research and learned something in 8 or 10 years. She could have even gone all the way and become an expert, earned a Ph.D, made discoveries, written papers and books.

What a waste, to spend that much time mulling a fantasy in her mind.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2013 8:13 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by foreveryoung, posted 03-06-2013 11:03 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply
 Message 350 by Faith, posted 05-08-2014 5:47 AM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16083
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 9.9


(1)
Message 317 of 1034 (692734)
03-06-2013 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by NoNukes
03-06-2013 8:13 PM


Re: Jeer bait
I don't know what work Faith could have been doing with her proposal for the last decade ...

Well she could have spent five minutes finding out that she was wrong, and the other 5,259,485 minutes doing something that wasn't stupid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2013 8:13 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3876
Joined: 09-26-2002


(1)
Message 318 of 1034 (692736)
03-06-2013 10:20 PM


Please, back to the topic
The "Faith bashing" side comment thing has gone on more than long enough.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that.

    
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 125 days)
Posts: 901
Joined: 12-26-2011


(13)
Message 319 of 1034 (692739)
03-06-2013 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Tanypteryx
03-06-2013 8:31 PM


Re: Jeer bait
If I hadn't mulled that fantasy around in my mind for over two years and debated it on various sites, I would never have been confronted with the best evidence for evolution by the most educated people on the subject. That fantasy is what drove me to become a geologist and prove the evolutionists wrong. Since I am not impervious to real evidence over a long period of time, I was eventually turned around in my thinking and I will become a successful geologist one day. Otherwise, I would still be a lowly blue collar worker without much curiosity for anything.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-06-2013 8:31 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19729
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 320 of 1034 (725807)
05-01-2014 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
02-22-2013 6:14 PM


Dr A to Faith
See Message 267, Message 272, Message 282, Message 287 of this thread.

Edited by RAZD, : correct link

Edited by RAZD, : ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 02-22-2013 6:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 321 of 1034 (726065)
05-06-2014 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Percy
02-26-2013 9:36 AM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
It is apparently your view that a new species can more likely form from existing variation than from novel variation. Does that really make sense to you?

It does if you imagine species formation to be God acting as a cosmic breeder and if you completely discount mutations while pretending not to do so. It does if you imagine that every new species cannot have any significant characteristics of the parent species.

In short, it is pretty easy to build a straw man version of evolution to attack and dismiss, particularly if the only one you need to convince is yourself.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Percy, posted 02-26-2013 9:36 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 322 of 1034 (726066)
05-06-2014 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
02-26-2013 9:38 AM


Re: Good idea, next step
Breeds, in order to "breed true" have homozygous genes particularly for the traits that define the breed. This must also be the case in the wild.

Only for the traits that define the breed, and even those genes can mutate. How can you even type that stuff without noticing the idiocy? Yes there is some limitation on Mendelian recombination, but evolution is not limited to that.

And how does the parent species manage to "breed true" with all of that extra diversity?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 02-26-2013 9:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 05-07-2014 1:13 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 323 of 1034 (726261)
05-07-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by NoNukes
05-06-2014 10:47 AM


Re: Good idea, next step
Only for the traits that define the breed,

Which I'm careful to say.

and even those genes can mutate. How can you even type that stuff without noticing the idiocy? Yes there is some limitation on Mendelian recombination, but evolution is not limited to that.

The fact is you do get stable species and those traits don't mutate or the mutations don't spread in the population because if they did you wouldn't have a species. But you do have species. (Mutations and their spread n the population are an article of faith anyway; the probability of this happening at any rate that you would need it to happen to stop the effects of the NECESSARY reduction in genetic diversity that MUST happen for a species to form, is just about nil. Witness cheetah, witness elephant seal.

And how does the parent species manage to "breed true" with all of that extra diversity? [/q]

It can't, increased diversity interferes. Nevertheless you do get true breeds. Therefore you aren't getting the increased diversity you think you are, the mutations you think you are getting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by NoNukes, posted 05-06-2014 10:47 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2014 1:34 PM Faith has responded
 Message 327 by PaulK, posted 05-07-2014 1:41 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 324 of 1034 (726263)
05-07-2014 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by NoNukes
05-06-2014 10:43 AM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Percy writes:

It is apparently your view that a new species can more likely form from existing variation than from novel variation. Does that really make sense to you?

I'll answer this here. The point is that I don't believe this novel variation exists, or if it exists at all not to any extent sufficient to produce viable alleles for the formation of a species. Sometimes I'll allow for the sake of argument that this is happening although I believe it doesn't, because there is no difference as far as the outcome goes: you still are getting changed allele frequencies when there is a population split and the expression of whatever traits are high frequency and dominating in the new population occurs along with the reduction or elimination of competing traits, i.e. competing alleles for other versions of those traits. You aren't going to get a new trait picture without the elimination of competing alleles. If you get an increase in diversity you just don't get the new trait picture, you'll never get a species.

For all intents and purposes it really doesn't matter if the variants are produced by mutation or by builtin alleles anyway; in either case selection leads to reduced genetic diversity.

NN writes:

It does if you imagine species formation to be God acting as a cosmic breeder and if you completely discount mutations while pretending not to do so.

Total straw man of course, just a refusal to understand what I'm saying. Mutations would only act as gene flow acts, to produce new variants for selection to act upon. For species to develop requires selection or the culling of traits that are not part of the new trait picture of the species. This cujlling is a decrease in genetic diversity for the new population /subspecies /species. This decrease HAS to happn if you are getting a new trait picture or a new species. This is exemplified easily with domestic breeding: you can't get a distinctive breed when alleles for traits that are not part of the breed you want keep showing up in individuals. These have to go if there is to be a distinctive breed. In the wild you do get distinctive new species, so what has to be happening there is that the traits for these species are developing in the absence of alleles for other traits. It's simple, it's obvious, it has to happen or the species that do in fact occur wouldn't be occurring.

It does if you imagine that every new species cannot have any significant characteristics of the parent species.

But of course it can, I've never said otherwise, all I've been emphasizing is that a new species IS different from the pareht species or it wouldn't BE a newq species. This doesn't mean that it doesn't share a great deal with the parent.

qIn short, it is pretty easy to build a straw man version of evolution to attack and dismiss, particularly if the only one you need to convince is yourself

It's even easier to build a straw man version of any idea that contradicts evolution because there are so many of you and you have a vested interest in your theory.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 325 of 1034 (726264)
05-07-2014 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
05-07-2014 1:13 PM


Re: Good idea, next step
Species do not consist of a homogeneous set of individuals. The diversity of the human race, which is a not just a single species but is a single sub species is a perfect example.

Your thesis of " diversity interferes with creation of species" is easily seen as so much bunk even based on your own statements.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 05-07-2014 1:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 05-07-2014 1:36 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 326 of 1034 (726265)
05-07-2014 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by NoNukes
05-07-2014 1:34 PM


Re: Good idea, next step
Species do not consist of a homogeneous set of individuals.

Huh?

Or: Yeah. So? And?

The diversity of the human race, which is a not just a single species but is a single sub species is a perfect example.

Huh?

Or: So? And?

Your thesis of " diversity interferes with creation of species" is easily seen as so much bunk even based on your own statements.

Have no idea what you're talking about except that it's some kind of weird straw man.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2014 1:34 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2014 2:12 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14715
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 327 of 1034 (726266)
05-07-2014 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
05-07-2014 1:13 PM


Re: Good idea, next step
quote:

Which I'm careful to say.

But remember that the situation for artificial breeds and natural species is different. The breed is defined by its distinctive traits while a species defines its distinctive traits.

A species doesn't even need distinctive traits of its own (cryptic species are identical in appearance, but cannot interbreed)

quote:

The fact is you do get stable species and those traits don't mutate or the mutations don't spread in the population because if they did you wouldn't have a species. But you do have species.

Only true within limits, as I point out above. A species can lose a formerly distinctive trait and it just ceases to be a distinctive trait.

quote:

te or the mutations don't spread in the population because if they did you wouldn't have a species. But you do have species. (Mutations and their spread n the population are an article of faith anyway; the probability of this happening at any rate that you would need it to happen to stop the effects of the NECESSARY reduction in genetic diversity that MUST happen for a species to form, is just about nil. Witness cheetah, witness elephant seal.

Perhaps you would actually like to show that rather than picking examples that don,t support your claims.

quote:

It can't, increased diversity interferes. Nevertheless you do get true breeds. Therefore you aren't getting the increased diversity you think you are, the mutations you think you are getting.

Perhaps you would like to show me one of these parent populations that can't breed true. I'm not aware of any or have any reason to believe that any have ever existed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 05-07-2014 1:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Faith, posted 05-07-2014 1:44 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 328 of 1034 (726267)
05-07-2014 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by PaulK
05-07-2014 1:41 PM


Re: Good idea, next step
But remember that the situation for artificial breeds and natural species is different. The breed is defined by its distinctive traits while a species defines its distinctive traits.

The genetic situation is nevertheless the same.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by PaulK, posted 05-07-2014 1:41 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by PaulK, posted 05-07-2014 1:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14715
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 329 of 1034 (726269)
05-07-2014 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Faith
05-07-2014 1:44 PM


Re: Good idea, next step
quote:

The genetic situation is nevertheless the same.

That is, in general false, and not even relevant since the issue is definition and classification rather than genetics.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Faith, posted 05-07-2014 1:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 330 of 1034 (726270)
05-07-2014 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Faith
05-07-2014 1:36 PM


Re: Good idea, next step
Have no idea what you're talking about except that it's some kind of weird straw man.

As is normal for you, you admit forming your opinion without any understanding. So let me spell out my argument for you.

Scientists believe that humans evolved from an ancestor names Homo erectus about 2 million years ago. If that is the case, then the target "breed" would be modern humans, including all of the diversity that currently exists. That means that mutations that produce the variations that we find among the current population would not interfere with the creation of the current species.

As far as strawmen go, since your stated position is that even given mutations, we cannot obtain new species, only a single example counter example is necessary to prove you wrong. In contrast, disproving single examples that others offer does not prove your point. You must disprove every strategy offered.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 05-07-2014 1:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Faith, posted 05-07-2014 2:42 PM NoNukes has responded

  
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