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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3207 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 256 of 591 (726067)
05-06-2014 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Blue
05-05-2014 1:11 AM


Re: Satan
Blue writes,
quote:
I don't have time to pick through your list of rubbish, but I will argue a few of them.
Wow, I feel honored. This should be interesting, insofar as the rubbish you're willing to argue.
quote:
I will take time later to argue the other points if I must.
What you decide to argue is entirely up to you, so you needn't argue anything, especially if you feel you're unable.
quote:
Please post your sources for "child abuse, human sacrifice, genocide, murder, rape, pillage" if you wish to argue them.
My sources..? My single source is the Bible. Do you mean you want to know where in the Bible it explicitly or implicitly approves of slavery, child abuse, human sacrifice, genocide, rape, murder and pillage..? Are you kidding..? Okay, here are just a few of the many instances where the Bible (the inerrant word of your God) supports the above:
Slavery - EX 21:20-12; LE 25:44-46, DT 15:17, EP 6:5, CN 3:22, TS 2:9, 1PE 2:18; EX 21:7-11.
Child Abuse - GE 17:14; EX 21:17, LE 20:9, DT 21:18-21; PR 13:24, 22:15, 23:13.
Human Sacrifice - LE 27:29; NU 31:31-40 (32 virgins are set aside for Jehova, to be burnt offerings).
Genocide - 1SA 15:7-8, 20; EX 32:27; NU 21:3; NU 21:35; NU 31:17-18; DT 2:33-34; DT 3:6; DT 7:2; JS 6:21-27; JS 10:28;
Rape - NU 31:18, 35, JG 21:12; NU 31:9; NU 31:31-40; DT 21:10-13.
Murder - GE 4:13-15; EX 32:27, DT 7:2, 13:15, 20:1-18
Pillage - EX 3:20-22, DT 20:13-17; JS 6:21-27; JS 10:28.
How's that..?
quote:
I do draw morality from within the bible but this does not mean I don't have a sense of current cultural morality.
So, when they are in conflict, do you obey the morality of your deity, or the morality of your culture..? You know, like where it says you should kill people for working on the Sabbath.
quote:
Honestly a huge list, if not all, of moral things I disagree with or agree with are congruent from within biblical terms.
Like killing homosexuals..? And killing people who plant different crops side by side, and wear two different kinds of cloth..? What about cutting the hands off of women..? Are these the morals you find superior..?
quote:
One could argue that I learned those moral rules because of culture, or one could argue that I just feel this way.
The morals of yours that I'm interested in are the ones that come from the Bible, and that are not part of our culture, like burning women with fire because the live a lifestyle you don't approve of, like a sex worker.
quote:
We can't prove, if we have some instinctual moral code that it is not from God.
Just as we can't prove any negative, like that our morals come from pixies, or elves. You are asserting your morals come from God, and that places the burden of proof squarely on you. Either you find the morality espoused by your God as correct or incorrect. Which is it..?
quote:
Why evil occurs (from an atheist vantage) is not proven.
And it's not necessary to "prove" any such thing. All that needs to be shown, to villify your God, is that evil exists, and that He permits or condones that existence.
quote:
This is actually a huge topic but I will leave that for you to think about.
The existence of evil contradicts a loving God who is omnipotent. The Euthyphro dilemna is one of Plato's early dialogues, and shows clearly that the existence of God and evil are incompatible.
quote:
As for slavery in the bible, slaves under hebrew/jewish law were treated very well.
Oh sure they were....ROFL. Does that include where it says in the Bible you can beat a slave as long as he doesn't die in a day or two..? How they were treated is not the issue. The only issue is whether it is moral to own another human being as property. The Bible and your God assert that it is moral, but in the modern world it is not moral. Which do you agree with..?
quote:
In fact most of them were treated better than those slaves here in the USA to the 17 trillion dollar debt/the elite/corp. IF you think Americans are free you are insane. We are privileged. And it is only a matter of time before those great privileges are reduced. I always love it when they use LAW to give freedom. LOL.
OMG, are you a Teabagger..? This comment has nothing to do with the thread, or anything I posted, so I'll just assume you wrote it while you were off your meds.
quote:
Not in my life. Prayer has been extremely helpful. I don't ask for to much, most of the time it is thank you. I will say I am blessed on so many levels. It is very strange how well life has gone.
Apparently, you missed the point. If your God is omniscient then He already knows everything, including your desires and needs. In fact He would've taken those things into account before making His plans, and if He is perfect then His plan must be perfect as well. Consequently, anything you might ask for would be unnecessary and would be a request for Him to change or alter His plans, which being perfect He couldn't or wouldn't do. Prayer to an omniscient God is a waste of time, since He already knows everything.
quote:
How about you prove you are mumbling a few words to your self. Oh wait, you cant prove it.
As a former Christian, who was baptized and attended church for years I can certainly state without fear of contradiction that I prayed much the same as you do. I can't prove I did any more than you can prove you do, but since this is an unremarkable claim I take you at your word when you say you pray. Too bad you don't take me at my word.
quote:
Oh wait, you cant prove it. Even on a scientific level you could form a theory. I would love to see a theory that shows prayer is useless.
Intercessory prayer has been shown to be worthless in a variety of studies, but that's insufficient proof for you, isn't it..?
quote:
My evidence has been given to me, all through my life.
And that evidence may be convincing for you, but it should never be convincing for anyone else. My question is, how do you know that the evidence you received all through your life is evidence, if you accept it on faith..?
quote:
Perhaps the other 33%/or 2.3 billion of 7 billion people on planet earth are crazy to believe in the power of prayer to Christ.
Perhaps they are, or maybe it's just wishful thinking. In any case the number of people who believe a thing to be true in no way makes it true. When the majority of people believed the earth was flat, did that make it flat..? And when they changed their beliefs and began to believe it was round, did the earth change and become round..?
quote:
I don't need to provide it to you.
He who asserts must prove, so yes you do. However, your failure to provide evidence for the efficacy of prayer simply shows you have no such evidence.
quote:
IF you want to see how prayer can help you, you need to pray with all your heart showing that God and Christ do exist. IF you pray without thinking those things, it is pointless. Perhaps that is your problem. If you don't know how to pray look below. Let me remind you, those faithful people permeate all parts of society from the average person to those working in physics, running companies, etc.
I was a Christian for many years, and prayed exactly in the same manner as you, whether you belive it or not (here comes the no true Scotsman fallacy). The one thing that those who were Christians, and later became atheists can attest to is the fact that prayer is useless, except that it might make you feel better. However, that says nothing about its efficacy, does it..?
quote:
Like that of Alexander The Great? We have no more proof of Alexander The Great than we do for Moses. Even if there was more evidence, it is still just an argument.
Not true at all, but even if you were right, it wouldn't matter. How does your claimed lack of evidence for Alexander the Great impact my life, or anyone else's life..? How would a lack of evidence effect the lives of Christians..? See the difference..?
Here is a lengthy response to your assertion about Alexander the Great...
Debunking Christianity: Alexander the Great, Jesus, and David Marshall: A Simpleton's Approach to History
It's entitled "Alexander the Great, Jesus, and David Marshall: A Simpleton's Approach to History, By Dr. Hector Avalos"
quote:
You do know that lack of evidence does not compute to does not exist. Perhaps you didn't realize that evidence is not proof?
Yes, that's right a lack of evidence is not equivalent to non-existence. So Bigfoot, fairies, elves, and Leprechauns are all as believable to you as Moses..? Lack of evidence requires a degree of skepticism, and the default is non-belief until sufficient convincing evidence is provided. You only get proof in mathematics, and alcohol. In history we get a degree of certainty. Read the article I provided, it explains it in detail.
quote:
Take for example the fossil record. Maybe God created life via evolution? My point, evidence does not speak, it is interpreted based on other evidence that is known. Then over time, those interpretations change.
Yes, that's called the scientific method. Interpretations change because new evidence and theories explaining the evidence are advanced. It doesn't happen by whim, or because of revelation.
quote:
I always love it when they realize we don't know where the universe came from. We are lost. I also love it when they claim they know where the universe came from. You do know that inflation is a joke, just like the bb. There is absolutely no evidence for inflation.
And you have evidence that denies or contradicts the evidence found and corroborated by scientists all over the world that specifically supports the big bang..? Could you provide that evidence..? An opinion, especially from someone who has no knowledge, or training in the field of cosmology, is less than convincing.
quote:
If you need help finding the information for my claims just ask. Look up the electric universe/thunderbolts.info. Refer to their interpretations of the cosmic microwave background radiation and further their interpretations of redshift or the doppler effect.
You're making the assertion, so it's not up to me to look up the evidence that you assert exists. If you had any evidence for your wild conjecture it would have been published and you (or the people making this claim that are putting forward) would have a Nobel Prize in physics. Do you have a Nobel Prize..? No..? Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson share a Nobel Prize for discovering the cosmic microwave background radiation left over from the Big Bang.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 1:11 AM Blue has not replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3207 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


(1)
Message 257 of 591 (726068)
05-06-2014 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Blue
05-05-2014 1:28 AM


Re: Reasons For Belief
quote:
Ok. I can see your nutz. Done talking to you.
I don't usually make an issue out of misspellings, but this one is funny. Fear is a terrible thing to live with, so don't let it rule your life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 1:28 AM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 11:22 AM MFFJM2 has replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 258 of 591 (726070)
05-06-2014 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Pressie
05-06-2014 1:04 AM


Re: Reasons For Belief
"your nutz" was a slang comment. I was not trying to use correct grammar. Apparently that was not understood. I am glad you picked up on the point. It should have been clear with the Z at the end of nut, or maybe it was the fact I didn't say you're crazy.
Oh and I will respond to his post shortly, since you are asking respectfully.
Edited by Blue, : Add
Edited by Blue, : Add

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Pressie, posted 05-06-2014 1:04 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Theodoric, posted 05-06-2014 11:23 AM Blue has replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 591 (726071)
05-06-2014 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by MFFJM2
05-06-2014 11:00 AM


Re: Reasons For Belief
I am not fearful of your response. I think you don't understand the point of my post. I will respond shortly.

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by MFFJM2, posted 05-06-2014 11:00 AM MFFJM2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by MFFJM2, posted 05-06-2014 2:37 PM Blue has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 260 of 591 (726072)
05-06-2014 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Blue
05-06-2014 11:14 AM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Yes it is slang but you still spelled it wrong. Are you that unable to accept you might be wrong about something?
Do you need basic instruction in English?
Your original spelling.
Your nutz
Your: (a form of the possessive case of you used as an attributive adjective): Your jacket is in that closet. I like your idea.
Therefore, you are talking about his nutz. Just bit inappropriate I think.
Now what I hope you meant.
You're nutz
You're: contraction of you are: You're certain that's right?
How about you just accept your medicine. You misspelled and it was funny, disturbing, but funny.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 11:14 AM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 11:49 AM Theodoric has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 261 of 591 (726073)
05-06-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Blue
05-05-2014 8:34 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
ringo writes:
How do you know you can trust God
You learn to trust God via prayer/revelation.
That's a glib answer but it doesn't work. Why would you pray to a god unless you thought you could trust him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 8:34 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 262 of 591 (726074)
05-06-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Blue
05-05-2014 8:44 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
Weather or not the law is in their hearts is just a point that even gentiles will follow the law not knowing it persay.
What Romans 2:14-15 says quite plainly is that man can and does decide what is evil, based on his conscience. That's what you asked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 8:44 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 263 of 591 (726076)
05-06-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Blue
05-05-2014 10:27 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
You know how gravity works right? This does not mean you know the theory, it just means you understand how gravity works. This is the same for revelations.
How do you know that gravity isn't caused by Satan trying to drag us down into Hell? How do you know whom the revelation is from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 10:27 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:10 PM ringo has replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 591 (726077)
05-06-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Theodoric
05-06-2014 11:23 AM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Theodoric,
The point was not to try and spell it correctly. It was like saying YUR NUTZ. IF you don't understand slang, don't try to debate it. Most of the time, slang is going to break grammatical/spelling rules.

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Theodoric, posted 05-06-2014 11:23 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Theodoric, posted 05-06-2014 3:43 PM Blue has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 591 (726083)
05-06-2014 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Blue
05-05-2014 10:27 PM


Re: Satan
I know because of revelation.
That's the reason that you think you know. That still doesn't tell me how you know.
You know how gravity works right? This does not mean you know the theory, it just means you understand how gravity works. This is the same for revelations.
Okay, let's say that you are standing in a box. You can feel the force pushing you towards the bottom. How do you know that it is gravity?
Now consider that you may be in one of these contraptions:
(click to enlarge)
How would you find out that it wasn't actually gravity that you are feeling?
Well, you'd have to step outside of the box. As long as you remain in the box, you are unable to distinguish between gravity and artificial weight.
The same goes for revelation. You have to step outside the box and see the whole picture to determine if what you think you know is correct. And if you find that the knowledge that has been revealed to you is in error, then you can be assured that it is not from God.
If you've received a revelation that Genesis is confirmed by science, then that information could not have come from God. Genesis is utterly refuted by science.
If Satan is real, how do you know that your revelation did not come from him? How do you know that it came from God?
Remember, you have to step outside of the Bible. I don't doubt that you can find internal consistency in there, but that doesn't lead you to truth. Just like staying in the box and feeling the artificial weight would make you think it was gravity.
Besides, there's plenty of fiction that is internally consistent. If you can't step outside of the box, then you can't get past the fact that you might be living in The Matrix.
This is the same for revelations. They are much different than coincidences. They are answers to questions, or at least the revelations I receive are answers to questions. I have received perfect answers to questions. I was about to explain one of them to you but apparently that is off topic.
That answers are easier to remain perfect if they're kept within the internal consistency rather than pulling them outside of the box and checking to see if the answers actually work.
If you've concluded through revelation that Genesis is confirmed by science, then you have not stepped outside of the box... because that is clearly wrong.
That revelation could not have come from God, but if Satan is real then it could have came from him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 10:27 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:18 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 591 (726092)
05-06-2014 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by ringo
05-06-2014 11:44 AM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
You know how gravity works right? This does not mean you know the theory, it just means you understand how gravity works. This is the same for revelations.
ringo writes:
How do you know that gravity isn't caused by Satan trying to drag us down into Hell? How do you know whom the revelation is from?
I was responding assuming you would understand the point I was trying to make. I didn't think we needed to discuss the facts forming the theory of general relativity. We don't have any information, as far as I know, from the Bible or otherwise that is suggestive Satan is responsible for gravity. I base my opinion of gravity on the observations relative to Einstein's general relativity. I suppose my opinion is also based on my personal observations. 1.) Objects smaller than the earth fall toward the earth. 2.) Objects smaller than the earth fall toward the earth at the same base rate regardless of mass (depending on the cause). If I drop a marble and a basketball they will fall at the same rate toward the earth even though the basketball has more mass. If I apply more energy to the marble it will reach the earth faster but only because I applied more energy to it, ditto to the basketball. If we ask ourselves why do things far away fall toward the earth/sun/other planets, or why do we rotate around the sun this is explained in general relativity. The sun curves the space around it due to its mass. In fact all objects that have mass curve space including the marble. We just can't observe it because the earth's mass curves all the space within a specified distance. I don't know the exact distance. If you want to know more I suggest you look up the history of Einstein, or the history of general relativity.
If you now reinterpret my post understanding that I accept general relativity, assuming you accept general relativity, it may change the way you understand my post.
I know the revelation is from God because of revelation. I was not always a Christian. I was at one time an atheist. One day I decided to give it a test in order to make an observation. I prayed to whatever was out there to make itself known to me. I didn't ask Christ, or Elohim to speak to me. I asked God if you are out there make yourself known to me. This lead to a many revelations, not mere coincidences. Now I accept Christ as the son of God. I am not going to dive into the specifics of the revelation because it is personal.
Edited by Blue, : Err

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 05-06-2014 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Coragyps, posted 05-06-2014 2:25 PM Blue has replied
 Message 269 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-06-2014 2:26 PM Blue has replied
 Message 276 by MFFJM2, posted 05-06-2014 2:56 PM Blue has replied
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 05-07-2014 11:41 AM Blue has replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 591 (726093)
05-06-2014 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by New Cat's Eye
05-06-2014 12:54 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
I know because of revelation.
Catholic Scientist writes:
That's the reason that you think you know. That still doesn't tell me how you know.
I believe I have answered your question in post 266. Please let me know if you have any other issues. IF you do, can you argue your point instead of asking questions. Rephrase your argument in the format of a argument instead of a question.
Edited by Blue, : Err

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-06-2014 12:54 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 268 of 591 (726094)
05-06-2014 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Blue
05-06-2014 2:10 PM


Re: Satan
I know the revelation is from God because of revelation.
Bzzzztt! Wrong!
That was me that revealed everything to you, just to mess with your head.
I know that what I say is true because of I know it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:10 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:41 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 591 (726095)
05-06-2014 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Blue
05-06-2014 2:10 PM


Re: Satan
I know the revelation is from God because of revelation.
So I was right in Message 249:
You know because you know.
When you know, you just know you know, because you know, you know?
But again, that's just saying why you know.
Its not saying how you know. Or how you know that you know.
One day I decided to give it a test in order to make an observation. I prayed to whatever was out there to make itself known to me. I didn't ask Christ, or Elohim to speak to me. I asked God if you are out there make yourself known to me. This lead to a many revelations, not mere coincidences. Now I accept Christ as the son of God. I am not going to dive into the specifics of the revelation because it is personal.
I don't like to get into the particulars either.
What you are essentially saying, is that God singled you out and miraculously made you know that you know that it was Him.
But the question remains, how do you know that it was God that did that?
How do you know it wasn't something else? Like, Satan or whatever.
I mean, you said it happened after you tested God. Maybe you opened your self up to other influences too, no? Isn't that possible?
If Satan was real, don't you think that he'd be trying to sway people? Wouldn't those looking to be swayed be an easier target?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:10 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3207 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 270 of 591 (726097)
05-06-2014 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Blue
05-06-2014 11:22 AM


Re: Reasons For Belief
quote:
I am not fearful of your response.
I didn't write that you were fearful of my response. I wrote that you shouldn't live in fear, and that was specifically directed at the kind of deity you assert exists, and that you feel the need to worship.
quote:
I think you don't understand the point of my post.
Your post had a point..? Well, then I most certainly did miss it. It appeared that you were rambling about many things, with very loose connectivity to them. Could we perhaps return to the thread..?
quote:
I will respond shortly.
Why don't you try answering the questions I posed, and which you've done your best to ignore..?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 11:22 AM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:50 PM MFFJM2 has not replied

  
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