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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3225 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 286 of 591 (726188)
05-06-2014 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Blue
05-06-2014 4:00 PM


Re: Satan
quote:
quote:
Can you square a circle..?
Yes. I've done it plenty of times with software.
Your answer simply means you didn't understand the question. A square is a geometric form just like a circle. They are by definition different, and therefore it is impossible to make a square into a circle and retain being a square. Please tell me more about what you've done in software that refutes basic logic. Can you also make a dog a cat and retain its being a dog..?
quote:
quote:
Can a dog be a cat..?
Yes. Label a cat a dog, and a dog a cat.
This is not only stupid, but a violation of the law of identity. You can call a dog a cat, which pretty much sums up the ability of theists to use logic, but it doesn't stop it being what it is.
quote:
quote:
Something cannot be itself, and yet not itself.
Yes it can.
No it can't. It's the law of identity.
quote:
You don't know much about quantum physics do you. Learn about wavicles/electrons or photons and light waves.
And you do..? Where did you get your PhD is physics..? I don't need to know anything about quantum mechanics to know you don't know what you're talking about regarding logic. You are thinking of human labels, and I am talking about identity. They are not the same thing. An electron is what it is and cannot be what it is not, even if we don't yet fully understand what it is.
quote:
Anything is possible.
No, you're simply wrong. The logical absolutes tell us that some things are impossible, even if you can't understand the logical absolutes. Example: it is impossible for me to be omniscient.
Edited by MFFJM2, : sp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 4:00 PM Blue has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by NoNukes, posted 05-08-2014 7:21 AM MFFJM2 has replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3225 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 287 of 591 (726195)
05-07-2014 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Blue
05-06-2014 4:15 PM


Re: Satan
quote:
I have received several revelations.
And what mechanism are you using to differentiate a true revelation from a delusion..? How do you know you're not delusional..?
quote:
I base my views not on 1 revelation but on several revelations.
It is just as easy, or hard, to have one delusional incident as it is to have a hundred. If you're delusional then you have delusions, and the number of delusions is not pertinent, just the intensity and duration. So how do you know you're not delusional..?
quote:
This is like looking at the fossil record, and then realizing fossils come out of the ground in a certain order. Apes earlier, humans first, etc.
It's difficult for me to believe you're this obtuse. The fossil record isn't happening in someone's head without empirical evidence. The fossil record exists in physical reality. Others can review the fossils and determine if their views are correct or not. These revelations are only seen by you, and there is no methodology for anyone to review them objectively.
quote:
This does not mean God does not exist, it just means we don't have a good understanding perhaps, or God does not exist.
Nothing like hedging your bets, is there. This doesn't mean there is no God, unless it does. I'm beginning to think you're a POE.
quote:
There is more than 1 conclusion.
But none of your suppositions support any of your conclusions. Saying something is so, doesn't make it so.
quote:
As time proceeds we gather facts and build conclusions.
That's not how it works. Now I understand. You don't know anything about how logic works, so of course you keep making inane and insipid comments like this one. You build premises, from which you draw a conclusion. Facts will help you support your premises, and show that they are true, but it is the premise that leads to the conclusion, not facts.
quote:
Revelation upon revelation upon revelation has lead me to know God is real, does exist and is answering my prayers.
Which does not explain how you know the revelations are real and not simply delusions. Do you recognize that people have religious delusions..? Do you recognize that people can hear aural and see visual hallucinations, which appear quite real, but are not..? Confirmation bias and after this therefore because of this reasoning are hardly the tools of a critical thinker.
quote:
This is not Science, this is theology. Theology is a different tool but does work well with Science.
No it doesn't. Theology relies on faith, and faith is not a pathway to truth. Faith is gullibility. Faith is believing something is true without evidence, or in face of contradictory evidence. Science does not and never will rely on faith, and neither should we.
quote:
An atheist without an open mind is like a Christian without an open mind, idiotic.
Did you read that in a fortune cookie. That kind of talk is referred to by Daniel Dennett as a deepity. Having an open mind is one thing, but believing in the supernatural without any convincing and verifiable evidence is idiotic alright. The point was that I don't believe you were ever an atheist, because an atheist wouldn't pray even as a test. An agnostic might do a test, but not an atheist.
quote:
quote:
How do you know they weren't coincidences, or confirmation bias, or delusion..? What kinds of double blind tests did you run..?
People prayed for things for me and I didn't know anything about it, because of where I was in life. Then later I found out they prayed for me and I received what they had prayed about.
And how is that anything other than after this therefore because of this..? Correlation does not prove causation. So, months or years after someone prayed for you, looking back you were able to find something that met your expectation of what constitutes divine intercession, and that was what convinced you..? Please tell me you have more than this..? How do you know they prayed at all..?
quote:
I have also heard other people with similar stories.
Me too. I've had schizophrenics tell me how they had conversations with the Archangel Gabriel, but that doesn't mean they did.
quote:
I may not able to quantify it for you, because you can't relive my history but you can pray if you are open minded and receive revelation.
You can't even quantify it for you, let alone me. I have prayed, just like you. However, I decided after years of nothing happening that I was just talking to myself, and that was exactly what the evidence supported. Now how do you know these so-called revelations are true and real, and not delusions..?
quote:
I doubt you would give it a chance though, which is why you are stuck in your view God does not exist.
My view that God does not exist is based on a lack of convincing evidence. Your assertion that God does exist is completely without merit, and based solely on something happening in your head. Can you provide any evidence that these revelations are not wholly a construct of your mind..?
quote:
A close mind is like a closed door.
I'm sure you mean a closed mind, because I don't know what a "close mind" is. More fortune cookie wisdom..? "In principle, skeptics are neither closed-minded nor cynical. We are curious but cautious." Michael Schermer. "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned."
quote:
I am not an atheist anymore. I opened the door and walked outside to see things I couldn't see from inside the room. If you only stand by atheism you will not get to see other avenues of existence.
I'm perfectly willing to address any or all of these so-called avenues of existence, and all you have to do is show them to me. Oh wait, that's too difficult. Sorry, I don't except that there is any other reality than what we see and hear and taste, unless you have evidence. Do you have evidence..? Non-belief is the default position whenever there is a lack of evidence, and atheism is non-belief.
quote:
Most likely things are still not what they appear.
I wrote that things are not always as they appear, especially if you're delusional. Believing in something sans evidence is foolish, and it can be demonstrated that it is against our very natures.
quote:
You can't go anywhere, even though there is many places to go in existence.
Could you be a little less ambiguous..? What are you rambling on about now..? I can go anywhere I choose. There is however only one plane of existence, and that is this physical reality, of the here and now. Do you know of some other..? Do you have evidence for its existence..? Do you know the difference between physical and conceptual..?
quote:
Just because you become scientific about things does not mean your Science is correct.
I don't "become scientific about things." I use the scientific method to determine what is real and true, because we have no other methodology that has consistently proven to be correct. Science is the best method of determining physical reality, and faith is the worst.
quote:
Just because a theory lives a century does not mean it will not be changed later.
Huh..? That is the nature of science. It conforms to the physical universe and the empirical evidence around us. That is the failure of faith and religion, because they do not.
Do you understand how science works, because it appears you don't..?
An hypothesis is developed to explain the evidence, and after time (sometimes a lot of time) it is refined into a theory. The theory explains all the evidence and tells us why. There may be refinements to the theory as better and more facts are gathered, but it wouldn't be a theory if it wasn't already close to a full explanation. A theory never graduates into a fact, because facts are explained by the theory.
quote:
The electric universe theory is shattering gravitation theories.
Ah, that "theory".
"The "Electric Universe" (EU) is an umbrella term that covers various pseudo-scientific cosmological ideas built around the claim that the formation and existence of various features of the universe can be better explained by electromagnetism than by gravity. The exact claims are diverse and vary from crank author to author. A common motif is the insistence that all science should be done in a laboratory an attempt to throw away gravity from the very beginning, because one can't put a solar system or a galaxy in a laboratory. Most Electric Universe proponents claim some kind of relation to the "plasma cosmology" of the Nobel Prize laureate Hannes Alfvn. Too bad his model was rendered obsolete by the missing observations of the radio emission predicted by his cosmology.
EU advocates can be roughly split into two groups: garden-variety physics cranks who are convinced that they have a legitimate revolutionary scientific theory, and various woo-peddlers who use EU claims to prop their main ideas (because mainstream physics would blow them apart). One subset of the latter comprises some of the more loony global warming deniers (such as Vault-Co), who try to use it to "prove" that climate change is being caused by some process outside human control.
Immanuel Velikovsky was an enthusiastic early adopter of electric universe ideas, seeing in them a possible mechanism to explain his scenario of planetary billiards, cosmic thunderbolts, and the notion that Earth was previously a satellite of Saturn."
ROFL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 4:15 PM Blue has not replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3225 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 288 of 591 (726226)
05-07-2014 6:40 AM


I apologize to the readers for the two long posts re: Blue, as I failed to notice he had become inactive.
What a shame. I thought we might actually get someone to explain how they know they aren't delusional when receiving supernatural revelations.
Oh well, perhaps he'll return. Would any other theists care to step up and explain how they know their supernatural revelations aren't simply constructs of their own minds..?

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-07-2014 10:15 AM MFFJM2 has replied
 Message 293 by 1.61803, posted 05-07-2014 12:17 PM MFFJM2 has replied
 Message 456 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 12:10 PM MFFJM2 has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 289 of 591 (726244)
05-07-2014 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by MFFJM2
05-07-2014 6:40 AM


Would any other theists care to step up...
I dunno, man, you're kind of a dick.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by MFFJM2, posted 05-07-2014 6:40 AM MFFJM2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by MFFJM2, posted 05-07-2014 2:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 290 of 591 (726253)
05-07-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Blue
05-06-2014 2:10 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
We don't have any information, as far as I know, from the Bible or otherwise that is suggestive Satan is responsible for gravity.
That's exactly the point. You don't have any information from outside the Bible. Your ideas about Satan are entirely subjective whereas our ideas about gravity are objective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:10 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 12:07 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 291 of 591 (726255)
05-07-2014 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Blue
05-06-2014 2:37 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
You do realize trust is always based on faith.
Well, trust is often based on past performance. If you trust your wife not to cheat on you it's because he hasn't cheated on you before.
Can you trust God to give you what you want because He's always given you what you wanted before? Most likely not. God has a track record of doing exactly what He wants to do without regard to your wishes.
Blue writes:
The idea that your observations give you security is merely faith.
I'm glad you use the phrase "merely faith". There may be hope for you yet. I have a low opinion of faith too.
Blue writes:
What if the interpretation of the observations is wrong?
Again, that's exactly the point. What if your interpretation of the observation/revelation is wrong? What if Satan is really the good guy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:37 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Blue, posted 05-08-2014 6:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 292 of 591 (726256)
05-07-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Blue
05-06-2014 2:54 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:
I interpret it to read, we will decide what is evil and we will be judged regardless of what we decide.
Yes, we decide what is evil - and if God or some other alien entity "judges" us, then we decide whether the judgement is evil or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 2:54 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Blue, posted 05-08-2014 6:31 PM ringo has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 293 of 591 (726258)
05-07-2014 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by MFFJM2
05-07-2014 6:40 AM


MFFJM2 writes:
Would any other theists care to step up and explain how they know their supernatural revelations aren't simply constructs of their own minds..?
Not without being circular.
However, one need not be a theist to suffer from delusions.
Of granduer or beautific.
The mind is fertile ground for all manner of claptrap be it religious or not.
Edited by 1.61803, : spelling

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by MFFJM2, posted 05-07-2014 6:40 AM MFFJM2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by MFFJM2, posted 05-07-2014 3:02 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3225 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


(1)
Message 294 of 591 (726272)
05-07-2014 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by New Cat's Eye
05-07-2014 10:15 AM


quote:
I dunno, man, you're kind of a dick.
You mean asking questions and refusing to put up with BS, makes me not such a nice fellow..? Just for sh!ts and giggles, what difference should that make anyway. Either your God exists, or He doesn't. And since, in the estimation of nearly every Christian I've ever encountered, I am destined to be tortured for all eternity for the unforgiveable sin of apostasy, I don't intend to kiss your @ss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-07-2014 10:15 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-07-2014 3:17 PM MFFJM2 has replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3225 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 295 of 591 (726274)
05-07-2014 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by 1.61803
05-07-2014 12:17 PM


quote:
Not without being circular.
However, one need not be a theist to suffer from delusions.
Of granduer or beautific.
The mind is fertile ground for all manner of claptrap be it religious or not.
So true. "In popular imagination, at least, psychotic delusions often have a religious component. In reality, many psychotic delusions are not religious. However, many delusions involve hallucinations or mind control by unseen agents, and so it's not too surprising that those who experience them fold them into their religious background. The religious beliefs don't trigger the psychosis, but they become enmeshed within it."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by 1.61803, posted 05-07-2014 12:17 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 591 (726276)
05-07-2014 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by MFFJM2
05-07-2014 2:56 PM


quote:
I dunno, man, you're kind of a dick.
You mean asking questions and refusing to put up with BS, makes me not such a nice fellow..? Just for sh!ts and giggles, what difference should that make anyway. Either your God exists, or He doesn't. And since, in the estimation of nearly every Christian I've ever encountered, I am destined to be tortured for all eternity for the unforgiveable sin of apostasy, I don't intend to kiss your @ss.
Case in point.
Oh, and you can say shit and ass here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by MFFJM2, posted 05-07-2014 2:56 PM MFFJM2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by MFFJM2, posted 05-07-2014 3:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3225 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


(1)
Message 297 of 591 (726277)
05-07-2014 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by New Cat's Eye
05-07-2014 3:17 PM


quote:
case in point.
And you can say shit an ass in here.
I didn't say anything, as this forum is the written word, not the spoken word. However, I didn't write it either. Look again. But now that you bring it up, your calling me names is unlikely to elicit a friendly response.
Edited by MFFJM2, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-07-2014 3:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-07-2014 3:45 PM MFFJM2 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 591 (726278)
05-07-2014 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by MFFJM2
05-07-2014 3:36 PM


I didn't say anything, as this forum is the written word, not the spoken word.
Well that was a dumb thing to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by MFFJM2, posted 05-07-2014 3:36 PM MFFJM2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by MFFJM2, posted 05-08-2014 6:28 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3225 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 299 of 591 (726309)
05-08-2014 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by New Cat's Eye
05-07-2014 3:45 PM


quote:
Well that was a dumb thing to say.
Once again, and for the learning impaired, I haven't said anything. But I bow to your superior personal knowledge of what constitutes dumb. I'm sure you have more experience with the dumb. Don't you also think the Theory of Evolution and the Geologic Column to be dumb ideas..?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-07-2014 3:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-08-2014 10:14 AM MFFJM2 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 300 of 591 (726313)
05-08-2014 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by MFFJM2
05-06-2014 11:11 PM


Re: Satan
Your answer simply means you didn't understand the question. A square is a geometric form just like a circle. They are by definition different, and therefore it is impossible to make a square into a circle and retain being a square.
If you are going to preen, you ought at least be right about something.
You are right when you say that you cannot square a circle using a computer. But your attempt to skewer your opponent reveals that you know just as little about the problem as he does.
The 'square the circle' problem is to construct, using only a straight edge and compass, a square having the equivalent area of a given circle. Turning a square into circle or equating the two has nothing to do with the problem. The problem is intractable because addressing the problem requires multiplication by a multiple of root pi using the tools given.
Using a computer fails because only the compass and straight edge are allowed. Period.
You are dismissed.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by MFFJM2, posted 05-06-2014 11:11 PM MFFJM2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by MFFJM2, posted 05-08-2014 8:37 AM NoNukes has replied

  
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