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Author | Topic: The blurry line between religious and crazy | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
What if he's fed up with his life? What if he follows his dreams? What if he rushes in where angels fear to tread?
If a man knows some weighty secret that he must reveal, and instead he blows a whistle, releases a cat from a bag, and spills some beans, we would not form a high estimate of his rationality.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1311 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
I hate it when our worship leader says stuff like "the Holy Spirit lead me to sing this song" because then if I don't like the song or am uninspired by it, then I am against the Holy Spirit. And there, in a rather neat nutshell, is the psychology of religion.When a "charismatic" cult leader convinces his followers to do good or do wrong, this is precisely the mindset he is preying on.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
What if he rushes in where angels fear to tread? Well now that would be foolish.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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ringo writes: What if he rushes in where angels fear to tread? He might discover something the angels were trying to keep for themselves. You get all my thoughts so far on this thread, ringo, because your post was the first to move me to reply. Only the fool rushing in part above is especially for you. If someone is taught to pray (meditate/reflect), and to interpret the reply (conclusion/result) as a communication from God...well, that's not crazy, that's just a common experience conditioned by religious instruction and practice. But if a woman on the way to work experiences a blast of trumpets, sees a fiery nimbus erupt from the mountains, and an earth-shattering roar demands an action she never considered and would have previously rejected...I'd probably be concerned about letting her babysit my granddaughter. Passionate religious expression, like sexual obsession, is often associated with madness because religious belief and sex are "high energy" states for most people; unsurprisingly, they are some of the most florid and thus most noticed foci of mental illness symptoms. It's tempting to ascribe many "crazy" offenses (terrorism, genocide, etc.) to religion, especially from the perspective of one culture looking at another. But usually, I think, the essential ingredient is otherness, and that can be racial, ethnic, political or national quite as readily as religious. Doesn't it seem like madness to wish or attempt the deaths of millions of people? You'd think so, but history suggests it may simply be a human behavior available to most of us, which is more frightening than the poor schizophrenic who panics and slashes someone with a kitchen knife."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 885 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
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And there, in a rather neat nutshell, is the psychology of religion. Not just the psychology of religion, but the psychology of human beings. We want to build ourselves up and make ourselves seem more credible. I have the same problem when a speaker is introduced, even in non-religious settings, and their many credentials are announced as if that makes what they going to say above reproach. I don't begrudge giving people credit for their achievements, but what a person says or does should be judged on its own merits, not on their credentials. This is what "Let your 'yes' be 'yes' and your 'no' be 'no'." means - let the credibility of your words and actions speak for themselves.
this is precisely the mindset he is preying on As do other scam artists. We want to trust other people; we expect that if someone has exceptional credentials that they are reliable; we want to believe that people are generally good and honest. And this part of human nature is easy to exploit. Question for you, do you think it is actually possible to "do Christianity" without using this type of manipulation? Or in other words, is manipulation inherent in religion or is it a distortion or corruption of religion? HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1311 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
As do other scam artists. We want to trust other people
But when that person invokes God as their instructor/reference/inspiration that goes beyond the person or their credentials.It is a rather effective way of disabusing themselfves of any responsibility for what follows. When the words "God told me.." are inserted before an instruction, desire, ideology or whatever, the devotee is far less likely to question it, as your original post suggested it makes you "want " to agree with it. Whether it be a song choice, a view on alterative lifestyles or incitement to war.
is manipulation inherent in religion
Yes.I mean, can anything that requires its followers to follow an archaic set of laws, (incorporating mysogyny, homophobia and sometimes genocide), many of which have little relevance to modern society, with the penalty for disobedience being some kind of unknowable eternal fiery torture at the hands of an unimaginably evil horned demon, be described as anything other than manipulation? Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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but what a person says or does should be judged on its own merits, not on their credentials. To the extent that credentials reflect experience and knowledge, those things are worth considering. While those things are not guarantees that a speaker has merit, they are surely indicators, and can add weight to whatever intrinsic merit the person has. Bill Gates might be able to talk convincingly about making it without a college degree, but perhaps I could not. My favorite anecdote about experience regards something that happened during the birth of my first child. One of the nurses told my wife to expect some 'discomfort'. Since my wife 'believed' that she was already feeling actual pain and not mere discomfort, she asked the nurse whether she had given birth and of course the answer was no. My son is now an adult, but my wife and I still laugh about the unconvincing nurse whenever we talk about the births of our children. She threatens me with a smackdown whenever I speak about birthing discomfort. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
HBD writes: Being human, we all have a tendency to manipulate, control, and push our own desires onto others. As Christians, we believe--by faith---that the Spirit(of Love and Truth) is greater than our animal instincts. It is therefore indeed possible to "do christianity" with noble motives....but it takes a disciplined lifestyle and a desire to help others before ourselves. Question for you, do you think it is actually possible to "do Christianity" without using this type of manipulation? Or in other words, is manipulation inherent in religion or is it a distortion or corruption of religion?When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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NoNukes writes: One of the nurses told my wife to expect some 'discomfort'. My personal favorite: "This is gonna sting a little." Second place, from a surgeon about to clean out an abscessed leg injury (using "GI anesthetic"--two orderlies holding my leg down): "Soldier, this will be extremely unpleasant for both of us." He was at least half right."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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My favorite line from a doctor "Come in, what seems to be the trouble [looks up] OH MY GOD!"
So I'm guessing that in med school he got poor marks for Bedside Manner 101. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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My wife learned very early in her medical training to never say "oops" when a patient is in the room.
Seems to upset people a bit. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Omnivorous writes:
What's really frightening about the Holocaust, for example, is the cold, calculating efficiency with which it was done. Serial killers and child molesters also seem to lack an obvious appearance of madness. Doesn't it seem like madness to wish or attempt the deaths of millions of people? When we decide to mistreat somebody who is "other", we are pretty good at fooling the ones who are "us".
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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What's really frightening about the Holocaust, for example, is the cold, calculating efficiency with which it was done. Well, was it efficient? We have these stereotypes of German efficiency, but in fact organizationally Nazism was a complete shambles. I think the real moral is that a bunch of crass bungling morons can do a lot of damage if they have enough idiots with enough guns. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
Yes, it was efficient. Don't take Hogan's Heroes too literally. The sad part is that the transport of the Jews "to the East" was the crowning glory of Nazi organization.
Well, was it efficient? We have these stereotypes of German efficiency, but in fact organizationally Nazism was a complete shambles.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Yes, it was efficient. Don't take Hogan's Heroes too literally. The sad part is that the transport of the Jews "to the East" was the crowning glory of Nazi organization. And did they do that efficiently? They killed a lot of Jews, but we would judge their efficiency by how many got away, what it cost per Jew, and indeed whether that was a good use of their resources rather than fighting the Allies. They were ruthless in pursuit of their stupid half-baked half-assed objectives, but that doesn't mean that they were efficient.
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