Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9073 total)
67 online now:
AZPaul3, jar, kjsimons, PaulK, Tangle, Tanypteryx (6 members, 61 visitors)
Newest Member: MidwestPaul
Post Volume: Total: 893,288 Year: 4,400/6,534 Month: 614/900 Week: 138/182 Day: 18/27 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Security Update Released


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1309
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 256 of 1309 (726950)
05-14-2014 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
05-14-2014 4:44 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
up to the 30s in our Nazi/fascist growth trajectory

You guys on the conservative right really must stop branding everything you disagree with as fascist. It does nothing for the argument, and just makes you appear tedious and uninformed to an intelligent audience. If we live in any society, any society at all, there will be times when each person's freedom to do exactly what they want is curtailed. That's not fascism - it's a consequence of living with folks who have different opinions from ours. We call it tolerance, not fascism.

Homosexuality is a sin, it is not a race or a class of people

Most people in our civilised societies disagree with you. We don't believe it's a sin, and we can see homosexual people as a class of people worth protecting. We don't think any homosexual person should be made to feel shit and second class by someone saying they think they're a sinner and should therefore be entitled to treat them as less than them. That's shitty. If treating someone like a full, decent human being is a violation of your conscience (which basically just means you don't like it), then do the decent, kind, thoughtful, dare I say Christian thing, and suck it up and serve them their cake.

This is an anti-Christian movement.

Rubbish. It's a movement to ensure that a group of human beings aren't treated like shit by their fellow human beings. Christians (and anyone else) can continue to believe what they want - they just can't treat anyone else like shit as a result.

Homosexuals are a danger to themselves and society

Ignorant, offensive horseshit. People's sexuality, if it is fully consensual, is no harm whatsoever to you, me, society or anything else. Unprotected intercourse with non-monogamous partners can clearly prove counter-productive in the fight against AIDS, but that applies to both hetero and homosexual intercourse.

Because you don't care about American freedoms

Rubbish. We just happen to know that freedoms are not absolute - they are limited by the freedoms of others. It's a nuanced and subtle analysis, which doesn't lend itself to the same tub-thumping soundbites as "you don't care about American freedoms", but then again, folks on this board tend not to be taken in by trite crap like that.

twisting it all to make ME the villain of course.

Never was there any less need to twist anything.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 4:44 AM Faith has taken no action

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1309
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(7)
Message 257 of 1309 (726951)
05-14-2014 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
05-14-2014 4:44 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Homosexuality is sin according to the Bible.

The day that I see you, and every other fundamentalist Christian who rails so hard against homosexuality, argue just as vociferously for the introduction of the death penalty (by stoning) for someone picking up sticks on the Sabbath, is the same day I will believe that your views are genuinely founded in true faith that homosexuality is contrary to God's will, rather than your own hatred.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 4:44 AM Faith has taken no action

Heathen
Member (Idle past 522 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 258 of 1309 (726963)
05-14-2014 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Faith
05-14-2014 5:38 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
You cannot be a PRACTICING sinner and be saved

So Paul was wrong?

Paul taught salvation by faith alone

and the scriptures are wrong?
we're saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone

Are you Sin-free?
Or do you sin?

Do you consider yourself saved or hellbound?

Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 5:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 10:17 AM Heathen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 683 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 1309 (726977)
05-14-2014 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Heathen
05-14-2014 9:04 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Practicing sinner means habitual sinner, one who persists in sin, will not give it up, will not repent of it, thinks God will accept him nevertheless but scripture says no, practicing habitual sinners are not saved, and it specifically names homosexuality.

Christians sincerely repent of sin, though they nevertheless do sin, are overcome by temptation at times, but they don't want to sin, don't do it habitually, do it inadvertently, perhaps don't understand yet that something is sinful and so on.

A homosexual has to repent of homosexual practice, remove temptation from his or her life; may nevertheless struggle with that inclination and find himself giving in to it, but with regret and contrition and attempts to reform, asking the Lord's forgiveness and His help to overcome temptation. That's the way the Christian life is normally lived by all Christians.

Scripture is clear about these distinctions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Heathen, posted 05-14-2014 9:04 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Heathen, posted 05-15-2014 2:45 AM Faith has replied
 Message 274 by Taq, posted 05-15-2014 11:36 AM Faith has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 260 of 1309 (726979)
05-14-2014 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
05-14-2014 4:44 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
A few posts above Dr A is mocking the plight of Christian business owners who have been targeted by Gay Rights advocates to punish them for refusing to provide services that would imply approval of gay marriage, which would violate their consciences. As usual he also twists the context to imply that Christians wouldn't serve homosexuals at all but this is false and has been shown over and over to be false. There is no reason a Christian would not provide ordinary services to homosexuals or anybody else under normal circumstances, it is strictly gay marriage they refuse to validate.

The proposed pro-discrimination laws are not confined to "strictly gay marriage". Have a look at this one.

Legalizing gay marriage in the courts is all of the same objective. This is an anti-Christian movement. Homosexuals have always been free to make their own unions however they want to, but making a law demanding that their unions be recognized by the state as legal is nothing but a way of forcing an unwelcome anti-Christian standard on Christians.

"Protestants have always been free to make their own unions however they want to, but making a law demanding that their unions be recognized by the state as legal is nothing but a way of forcing an unwelcome anti-Catholic standard on Catholics."

The parallel is rather exact. Catholics do not recognize marriage except when performed by a priest in (what they think is) the Apostolic Succession, having gone through the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Do we violate their religious rights by having the state acknowledge those marriages that they do not?

Well then, other religions, or other denominations of your religion, want to celebrate gay marriages. The fact that your denomination doesn't recognize such marriages doesn't mean that you should be able to play dog-in-the-manger in the name of your religious freedom. What about theirs?

Or if the state of Utah had passed a law saying that only marriages conducted in a Mormon temple were to be considered valid, would you say that an effort by mainstream Protestants to have their marriages acknowledged by the state was a blow against the religious freedom of Mormons? Would it be "nothing but a way of forcing an unwelcome anti-Mormon standard on Mormons"?

If you want another parallel, here's one:

"Black people have always been able to vote however they want to, but making a law demanding that their votes be recognized by the state as valid is nothing but a way of forcing an unwelcome anti-White standard on Whites."

The point of voting is to have your vote counted. It is not sufficient to permit people to go through a meaningless charade and then not count their votes. If black people were allowed to have their own ballot boxes, to put crosses on the ballots, to put the ballots in the slot --- but not to have these ballots counted as part of the official tally, would that be defensible on the grounds that "they can vote however they want to"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 4:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 11:37 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 683 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 261 of 1309 (726984)
05-14-2014 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 10:55 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Your comparisons and logic-chopping analogies are false as I already said in what I wrote. Ridiculous and in fact evil. Perhaps I'll come back and explain more later.

I can't read your link, the print is faint and the background too white for my eyes.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 10:55 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 1:01 PM Faith has taken no action
 Message 263 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 1:37 PM Faith has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 262 of 1309 (726999)
05-14-2014 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Faith
05-14-2014 11:37 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Your comparisons and logic-chopping analogies are false as I already said in what I wrote. Ridiculous and in fact evil. Perhaps I'll come back and explain more later.

You can't explain more for the same reason that Alice couldn't have more tea.

I can't read your link, the print is faint and the background too white for my eyes.

I'm sorry to hear about your eyes. Amongst other things, the bill protects:

Making business-related decisions in accordance with sincerely held religious beliefs or exercise of religion including, but not limited to: (i) Employment decisions; (ii) Client selection decisions;

That is, a doctor (for example) may refuse to take a gay person as a patient, if it is his sincerely held religious belief that God hates gay people and wants them to be ill as a punishment for TEH GEY. You may, perhaps, agree with this, but you must at least admit that this goes far beyond saying that the doctor doesn't have to help out at a gay wedding.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 11:37 AM Faith has taken no action

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 263 of 1309 (727006)
05-14-2014 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Faith
05-14-2014 11:37 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Your comparisons and logic-chopping analogies are false as I already said in what I wrote. Ridiculous and in fact evil. Perhaps I'll come back and explain more later.

But do explain.

Catholics don't recognize marriages performed by Protestant ministers as legitimate. Is it a blow to their religious freedom if the state recognizes such marriages?

Mormons don't recognize marriages performed outside a Mormon temple as being legitimate. Is it a blow to their religious freedom if the state recognizes such marriages?

I can find you any number of churches which think that interracial marriage is against God's law. (I can supply references, or you can google it yourself.) Does it take away their rights if the state recognizes such marriages?

In the same way, your sect does not recognize gay marriage. That doesn't mean that it's a blow against your religious freedom if the state recognizes the gay marriages performed by different sects, such as the Quakers or the Waldensians or whatnot.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 11:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 7:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 683 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 264 of 1309 (727021)
05-14-2014 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 1:37 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Your link is a proposed bill? That supposedly defends my side of this argument or something like that? What does that prove? That somebody agrees with me? If it's not a law but only a bill, so what?

The point I was making was that Christian businesses HAVE BEEN persecuted, had to pay a fine, for refusing to offer services that would have given tacit approval to gay marriage, which they strongly oppose on biblical grounds. That's an actual law that has been acted on. It certainly IS a "blow against my religious freedom" when I am subject to fascistic legal punishment for taking such a stand.

So what's your point now?

Different religious organizations not recognizing marriages performed by other religious organizations also has nothing to do with the points at issue here that I can see, except that the government really shouldn't have anything to do with marriage anyway. It should be left to the religious organizations who can't force their beliefs on other people as government can and does.

I understand that the government got involved in marriage in the first place in an effort to prohibit interracial marriages back in the 19th century. Now it makes laws that persecute people for objecting to gay marriage. Always on the wrong side of every issue and it's none of their business anyway. Now gay rights activists, as I said, are clearly out to persecute Christians, nobody else, just those who stand on the Bible which declares homosexuality a sin, and now the government is putting its weight behind that evil undertaking against our first amendment rights.

I don't see that you've addressed any of these points in your posts.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 1:37 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 7:34 PM Faith has replied
 Message 273 by frako, posted 05-15-2014 6:33 AM Faith has taken no action

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 265 of 1309 (727022)
05-14-2014 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
05-14-2014 7:17 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Your link is a proposed bill? That supposedly defends my side of this argument or something like that? What does that prove? That somebody agrees with me? If it's not a law but only a bill, so what?

I cannot deal with this level of incomprehension. All I have to say about this is that I think you need a nice lie down and a soothing relaxing prefrontal lobotomy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 7:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 7:54 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 683 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 266 of 1309 (727025)
05-14-2014 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 7:34 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Or you could explain where I missed your point. It shouldn't take more than a minute or two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 7:34 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 8:12 PM Faith has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 267 of 1309 (727027)
05-14-2014 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
05-14-2014 7:54 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Very well. I wrote, in full:

Dr A writes:

But do explain.

Catholics don't recognize marriages performed by Protestant ministers as legitimate. Is it a blow to their religious freedom if the state recognizes such marriages?

Mormons don't recognize marriages performed outside a Mormon temple as being legitimate. Is it a blow to their religious freedom if the state recognizes such marriages?

I can find you any number of churches which think that interracial marriage is against God's law. (I can supply references, or you can google it yourself.) Does it take away their rights if the state recognizes such marriages?

In the same way, your sect does not recognize gay marriage. That doesn't mean that it's a blow against your religious freedom if the state recognizes the gay marriages performed by different sects, such as the Quakers or the Waldensians or whatnot.

Your reply began:

Faith writes:

Your link is a proposed bill? That supposedly defends my side of this argument or something like that? What does that prove? That somebody agrees with me? If it's not a law but only a bill, so what?

If you would like to suggest any conceivable way in which that does relate to my post ... take all the time you like.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 7:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:36 AM Dr Adequate has taken no action

Heathen
Member (Idle past 522 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 268 of 1309 (727041)
05-15-2014 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
05-14-2014 10:17 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
So salvation comes NOT through faith alone. (as you have previously claimed)

But rather through a combination of works and grace?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 10:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:38 AM Heathen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 683 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 269 of 1309 (727044)
05-15-2014 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 8:12 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Thanks but now I KNOW I'm not following you so I'll have to come back to this later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 8:12 PM Dr Adequate has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Heathen, posted 05-15-2014 6:14 AM Faith has taken no action

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 683 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 270 of 1309 (727045)
05-15-2014 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Heathen
05-15-2014 2:45 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
No, salvation is by grace alone as scripture says, not by works lest anyone should boast, as scripture says. Works are the result of grace, building on salvation but not in any way the cause of salvation.

I can of course keep repeating this in the teeth of your refusal to understand it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Heathen, posted 05-15-2014 2:45 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Heathen, posted 05-15-2014 6:06 AM Faith has taken no action

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022