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Author Topic:   Depositional Models of Sea Transgressions/Regressions - Walther's Law
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 271 of 533 (727042)
05-15-2014 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Percy
05-14-2014 4:36 PM


Re: the great unconformity
So where did all the material in the first diagram go that is missing in the second? Take, for example, the bottommost layer that is a darkish orange. In the first diagram it stretches from one side of the diagram to the other. In the second diagram it is clipped short at the Tapeats and then below and to the right at the Vishnu Schist. It used to stretch for hundreds of miles in all directions buried beneath a mile of rock, now it's just a short stretch of maybe a mile. Where did all the cubic miles of rock go? That much rock could not help but leave huge amounts of evidence behind telling us what happened to it.

I've already answered this. The block of strata broke off as it was pushed up against the Tapeats, and the erosion caused by the abrasion between it and the Tapeats collected along the contact line as it slid for some distance, but also collected beneath the block itself. The whole area is raised up, so there is room there for it to collect where the strata block was and get metamorphosed into Vishnu schist. The rest of the length of the strata from which the tilted block broke off has to be where it always was, it's just not shown on the diagrams.

I just answered this AGAIN in a recent post, why do you keep harping on it? There isn't as much eroded material there in my scenario as you think there should be.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : change a few words


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Percy, posted 05-14-2014 4:36 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by herebedragons, posted 05-15-2014 8:32 AM Faith has responded
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 05-15-2014 9:06 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 272 of 533 (727043)
05-15-2014 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by edge
05-14-2014 8:41 PM


Re: the great unconformity
Well, the fact is that those units are truncated at the Great Unconformity. Faith does not recognize this fact. As I understand it, she want's it to be a tectonic contact for which there is no evidence. The GC Supergroup is tilted and truncated.

Surely you don't have to talk Geologese ALL the time do you? You DO speak plain English in most of your life I would assume. I cannot picture what you are describing here. Yes I know what the word "truncated" means but WHAT "units" are you talking about that are truncated "at the Great Unconformity. I can't respond if I don't understand what you are talking about and I'm tired of getting told my lack of understanding is my fault when most of it is yours. It's hard to talk to someone whose methods are devious.

So WHAT is it you think I don't recognize? Speak English.

And what do you mean about my supposedly WANTING something or other to "be a tectonic contact?" For crying out loud I can SEE that the Supergroup is tilted and truncated, I've been talking about it for years already.

Actually the problem isn't English is it? It's that you don't know how to put a picture into words so that someone else can understand you. AND you have such contempt for creationists you don't want me to understand anyway, you'd rather keep insulting me for not understanding your gobbledygook.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by edge, posted 05-14-2014 8:41 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Pressie, posted 05-15-2014 5:31 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 275 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2014 7:15 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 279 by edge, posted 05-15-2014 9:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 273 of 533 (727046)
05-15-2014 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
05-15-2014 3:20 AM


Re: the great unconformity
This was unbelievably funny. The best comedy I've been subjected to for a long, long time.

Faith writes:

Surely you don't have to talk Geologese ALL the time do you?

I guess that when people talk about geology, they normally speak 'Geologese'!

What do you expect when people discuss truncated strata? That they should speak Cosmologese or Genetisese or Moleculese or Atomosese?

Anyway, thanks edge. Your posts are amazing. I'm really, really tempted to go and spend a fortune to go and see those rocks myself!

Edited by Pressie, : Added last sentence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:20 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 274 of 533 (727051)
05-15-2014 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by edge
05-15-2014 1:17 AM


Re: More unbelievable stuff!
which I'm sure Faith will find laughably incredible since it shows 14 minor transgressive/regressive cycles in 2500 feet of section at the Joggins coal fields of Nova Scotia.

I think it would be cool to discuss the geology of Nova Scotia. After all that area was surely covered by the Great Flood even if Noah never saw it, right? It isn't all about the GC.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by edge, posted 05-15-2014 1:17 AM edge has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 533 (727052)
05-15-2014 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
05-15-2014 3:20 AM


Irony meter hits the peg.
Actually the problem isn't English is it? It's that you don't know how to put a picture into words so that someone else can understand you.

Ouch. Coming from Miss Parallel, that's got to hurt.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:20 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 276 of 533 (727055)
05-15-2014 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
05-15-2014 3:13 AM


Re: the great unconformity
The block of strata broke off as it was pushed up against the Tapeats, and the erosion caused by the abrasion between it and the Tapeats collected along the contact line as it slid for some distance, but also collected beneath the block itself. The whole area is raised up, so there is room there for it to collect where the strata block was and get metamorphosed into Vishnu schist.

The Supergroup is the "strata block" that slid under the Tapeats? And this created the material that was metamorphosed into Vishnu schist? Question ... do you know how thick the Vishnu schist is? I looked for an answer to that but only found "unknown thickness."

There isn't as much eroded material there in my scenario as you think there should be.

I am thinking there couldn't possibly be enough eroded material for your scenario to produce the Vishnu schist from the sliding contact between the Supergroup and the Tepeats. But I am probably just misunderstanding your argument (as we all do).

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:13 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 9:01 AM herebedragons has responded
 Message 280 by edge, posted 05-15-2014 9:17 AM herebedragons has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 277 of 533 (727057)
05-15-2014 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by herebedragons
05-15-2014 8:32 AM


Re: the great unconformity
I am thinking there couldn't possibly be enough eroded material for your scenario to produce the Vishnu schist from the sliding contact between the Supergroup and the Tepeats.

Well, there's an original thought. I don't think so either though, I think it just contributed to the Vishnu schist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by herebedragons, posted 05-15-2014 8:32 AM herebedragons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by edge, posted 05-15-2014 9:30 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 282 by herebedragons, posted 05-15-2014 9:32 AM Faith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18808
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 278 of 533 (727058)
05-15-2014 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
05-15-2014 3:13 AM


Re: the great unconformity
Faith writes:

I've already answered this. The block of strata broke off as it was pushed up against the Tapeats, and the erosion caused by the abrasion between it and the Tapeats collected along the contact line as it slid for some distance, but also collected beneath the block itself. The whole area is raised up, so there is room there for it to collect where the strata block was and get metamorphosed into Vishnu schist. The rest of the length of the strata from which the tilted block broke off has to be where it always was, it's just not shown on the diagrams.

Even if the material is where it always was, just crumbled up, it would still take up as much space as it always did. Here's the diagram again where the bottom four layers represent the supergroup before it tilted:

These bottom four layers extend for hundreds of miles, just like the layers above them, as shown in this familiar Grand Staircase diagram:

So in your scenario, the tilted layers of the supergroup on the right side of the diagram at one time were level and extended beneath the Tapeats all the way from Cedar Breaks to the Grand Canyon (and further, of course, since the layers don't just stop at the edges of the diagram). Then tectonic forces tilted them leaving behind what we see today.

So if this happened as you say, where are all the cubic miles of supergroup layers that used to underlie the Tapeats? You are self-evidently wrong to claim that that it remains "where it always was, it's just not shown on the diagram," because not only would that much material definitely be represented in diagrams, it would also be copiously described in the geological literature, and it would be whoppingly self-evident to the naked eye. Here's an image of the Grand Canyon Supergroup boundary with the Tapeats. The intersection runs across the center of the image, and there's no layer of crumbled up supergroup at the intersection:

Here's a more close up image:

The idea of layers rotating while buried under miles of rock is physically impossible and ludicrous on its face, but if we found evidence telling us that's what happened then we'd have to accept it and try to develop theories for how that happened naturally. But besides being physically impossible there's no evidence that any such thing ever happened.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Add a second Great Unconformity image.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:13 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 10:34 AM Percy has responded
 Message 311 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-15-2014 10:38 PM Percy has responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 279 of 533 (727059)
05-15-2014 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
05-15-2014 3:20 AM


Re: the great unconformity
Surely you don't have to talk Geologese ALL the time do you? You DO speak plain English in most of your life I would assume. I cannot picture what you are describing here. Yes I know what the word "truncated" means but WHAT "units" are you talking about that are truncated "at the Great Unconformity. I can't respond if I don't understand what you are talking about and I'm tired of getting told my lack of understanding is my fault when most of it is yours. It's hard to talk to someone whose methods are devious.

Or precise.

So WHAT is it you think I don't recognize? Speak English.

Okay, I see that you understand the Great Unconformity is younger than the Unkar Group because it cuts the layers. However, this has implications. In the case of Percy's question where did all of that ground up rock go?

And what do you mean about my supposedly WANTING something or other to "be a tectonic contact?" For crying out loud I can SEE that the Supergroup is tilted and truncated, I've been talking about it for years already.

A tectonic contact would be like a fault with relative motion of the two sides. You are forcing the unconformity to be a tectonic contact despite that fact that there is no evidence for this and that would be what I call wishful science.

Actually the problem isn't English is it? It's that you don't know how to put a picture into words so that someone else can understand you. AND you have such contempt for creationists you don't want me to understand anyway, you'd rather keep insulting me for not understanding your gobbledygook.

I am simply trying to show you how much you don't know. If you take that as an insult, there isn't much I can do to help.

Is this complaint just a diversion, Faith?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:20 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 280 of 533 (727061)
05-15-2014 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by herebedragons
05-15-2014 8:32 AM


Re: the great unconformity
The Supergroup is the "strata block" that slid under the Tapeats?

Evidently.

And this created the material that was metamorphosed into Vishnu schist?

Never mind that, in this 'model', the Vishnu should found along the contact between the GC Supergroup and the Tapeats; in other words it is the Great Unconformity.

Question ... do you know how thick the Vishnu schist is? I looked for an answer to that but only found "unknown thickness."

That would be very difficult to determine since it has been so deformed and then eroded, and now covered...

ETA:

I am thinking there couldn't possibly be enough eroded material for your scenario to produce the Vishnu schist from the sliding contact between the Supergroup and the Tepeats. But I am probably just misunderstanding your argument (as we all do).

This is, I believe, Percy's point. There should be a very thick zone of crushed rock all along the Great Unconformity; one that contains both supergroup rocks and Tapeats.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by herebedragons, posted 05-15-2014 8:32 AM herebedragons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by herebedragons, posted 05-15-2014 9:59 AM edge has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 281 of 533 (727062)
05-15-2014 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
05-15-2014 9:01 AM


Re: the great unconformity
Well, there's an original thought. I don't think so either though, I think it just contributed to the Vishnu schist.

Very creative, but there is no evidence for this. A rock type that forms by abrasion along a fault plane does not simply move into one big concentration away from its place of origin. If the Vishnu were even partly caused by sliding it would extend out along the Great Unconformity and be nearly everywhere present.

And if the Zoroaster Granite intrudes the Vishnu, why do we not see it also intruding the GC Supergroup and all along the unconformity.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 9:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 282 of 533 (727063)
05-15-2014 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
05-15-2014 9:01 AM


Re: the great unconformity
I think it just contributed to the Vishnu schist.

Except that would produce a contact surface between the original material and the new material. Do we see that in the exposed formation?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 9:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 9:56 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 283 of 533 (727065)
05-15-2014 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by herebedragons
05-15-2014 9:32 AM


Re: the great unconformity
I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this particular aspect of the situation, so any part of it could be wrong, but the diagram shows contact. But the idea I have in mind is that the Vishnu schist is metamorphosed eroded rock, or sedimentary rubble, so it looks like a very likely candidate for where much of the rubble from the eroded Supergroup would have gone that everybody keeps objecting is this enormous amount I haven't accounted for. Edge did say that the composition of the Vishnu doesn't fit my scenario but unfortunately edge seems to enjoy saying things in a way that confuses rather than enlightens. Perhaps you could act as translator.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by herebedragons, posted 05-15-2014 9:32 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by edge, posted 05-15-2014 11:23 AM Faith has responded

    
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 284 of 533 (727066)
05-15-2014 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by edge
05-15-2014 9:17 AM


Re: the great unconformity
the Vishnu should found along the contact between the GC Supergroup and the Tapeats; in other words it is the Great Unconformity.

But, I was understanding her idea to be that the ground up material was back-filling a gap underneath the Supergroup after it was tilted. But there is no indication that the Vishnu schist was formed in two separate events.

Idk, I guess I just don't understand her argument .

There should be a very thick zone of crushed rock all along the Great Unconformity; one that contains both supergroup rocks and Tapeats.

I think there is though, but only at the contact and above into the Tepeats. It does not extend below the Great Unconformity. I think Percy's point is that a whole lot of material that would be the Supergroup is missing. Material that would have been under the entire area before tilting and sliding and whatever else occurred. Where could it have gone? It didn't turn into Vishnu which I think is what Faith is suggesting (not sure though).

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by edge, posted 05-15-2014 9:17 AM edge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 10:06 AM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 10:24 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 285 of 533 (727067)
05-15-2014 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by herebedragons
05-15-2014 9:59 AM


Re: the great unconformity
The zone of erosion between the Supergroup and the Tapeats IS pretty thick, which can be seen in the video of the UK Creationist Paul Garner I posted way back somewhere. I can dig it up again. A fifteen foot diameter quartzite boulder is embedded IN the Tapeats above the contact line.

Percy seems to think that the whole length of strata from which the Supergroup broke off should be rubble but I don't see why. The part that was subjected to tectonic and volcanic disturbance is right beneath the Grand Canyon itself, which is where the Great Unconformity formed and the Zoroaster granite and the metamorphosed rock that is the Vishnu, all products of tectonic pressure and volcanic magma heat. There is no reason the strata to the north and south would have been crushed.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by herebedragons, posted 05-15-2014 9:59 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Percy, posted 05-15-2014 10:57 AM Faith has responded

    
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