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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
Heathen
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 271 of 1309 (727048)
05-15-2014 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Faith
05-15-2014 3:38 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
How does one achieve grace?
Through faith?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:38 AM Faith has not yet responded

Heathen
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(1)
Message 272 of 1309 (727049)
05-15-2014 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
05-15-2014 3:36 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
It's being made as clear as possible,

For instance:
You think the catholic church is the Antichrist, yes?
Therefore we would assume that any marriage perfomed by this church is not recognised by you.

However, The state recognises such marriages.

Do you feel that your Religious freedoms are being infringed upon because these catholic weddings are being recognised and accepted by the state and society at large?

Is it fascistic that you are not allowed to discriminate against catholics? or jews? or muslims? or mormons? or jehovahs witnesses?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 273 of 1309 (727050)
05-15-2014 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
05-14-2014 7:17 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
The point I was making was that Christian businesses HAVE BEEN persecuted, had to pay a fine, for refusing to offer services that would have given tacit approval to gay marriage, which they strongly oppose on biblical grounds.

So let me get this straight Christians are in a no win situation in this case as if they dont serve gays they will get fined, but if they do God is gonna send them to hell for baking a cake for a gay couple?


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 7:17 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 8488
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 274 of 1309 (727080)
05-15-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
05-14-2014 10:17 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Practicing sinner means habitual sinner, one who persists in sin, will not give it up, will not repent of it, thinks God will accept him nevertheless but scripture says no, practicing habitual sinners are not saved, and it specifically names homosexuality.

Until you start living by the edicts of religions you don't belong to, don't expect others to live by the edicts of your religion.

Should the state outlaw pork? Require women to wear a burqa?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 10:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:53 PM Taq has not yet responded

Taq
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 8488
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 275 of 1309 (727082)
05-15-2014 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Minnemooseus
05-14-2014 1:32 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Best topic I could find for this.
State Judge Strikes Down AR Marriage Ban

U.S. Magistrate Judge Candy Dale has ruled Idaho’s ban on gay marriage is unconstitutional

Yes, bare links. But I wanted to get this into the record somewhere. Go to the linked pages to read more.

Moose

The actual ruling is very well written, IMHO.

"This case asks a basic and enduring question about the essence of American government: Whether the will of the majority, based as it often is on sincere beliefs and democratic consensus, may trump the rights of a minority

... Idaho's marriage laws deny same-sex couples the economic, practical, emotional, and spiritual benefits of marriage, relegating each couple to a stigmatized, second-class status. Plaintiffs suffer these injuries not because they are unqualified to marry, start a family, or grow old together, but because of who they are and whom they love,"

Read more here: http://www.idahostatesman.com/...rejected.html#storylink=cpy

Also, a stay on the decision has been denied:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/...les-idaho-gay-marriage.html

As an Idahoan, I really didn't think I would see this happen this quickly. Same sex couples start getting married tomorrow here in my own state, which is one of the most conservative in the nation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-14-2014 1:32 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 276 of 1309 (727085)
05-15-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by frako
05-15-2014 6:33 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
frako writes:

So let me get this straight Christians are in a no win situation in this case as if they dont serve gays they will get fined, but if they do God is gonna send them to hell for baking a cake for a gay couple?


Damned if you do, fined if you don't. Sounds like a fair trade to me.

Apparently fundies take get-out-of-hell-free literally - tax-free, fine-free.... Next they'll be wanting a free lunch - and damn you for persecuting them if they don't get it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by frako, posted 05-15-2014 6:33 AM frako has not yet responded

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 557 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 277 of 1309 (727139)
05-15-2014 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Taq
05-15-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Until you start living by the edicts of religions you don't belong to, don't expect others to live by the edicts of your religion.

I'm talking only about people who think they are Christians. You might learn to read in context.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Tangle, posted 05-15-2014 4:10 PM Faith has responded
 Message 279 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-15-2014 4:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8320
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


(8)
Message 278 of 1309 (727143)
05-15-2014 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
05-15-2014 3:53 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Faith writes:

I'm talking only about people who think they are Christians.

Once upon a time being a Christian meant being a nice person. Someone who followed gentle Jesus, meek and mild - someone who washed the feet of sinners, defended prostitutes and walked amongst lepers. He's exactly the kind of bloke that would have been on the side of the persecuted homosexual. When did those values change Faith? Why have made Jesus into someone that isn't nice?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 279 of 1309 (727145)
05-15-2014 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
05-15-2014 3:53 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
I'm talking only about people who think they are Christians.

You mean those people who conduct gay marriages?

OK, let's live by the edicts of their religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 557 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 280 of 1309 (727156)
05-15-2014 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Tangle
05-15-2014 4:10 PM


Becoming a Christian means giving up your sins
Once upon a time being a Christian meant being a nice person. Someone who followed gentle Jesus, meek and mild - someone who washed the feet of sinners, defended prostitutes and walked amongst lepers. He's exactly the kind of bloke that would have been on the side of the persecuted homosexual. When did those values change Faith? Why have made Jesus into someone that isn't nice?

Jesus kept company with sinners, but sinners all have to give up their sin to be saved, meaning to be a Christian, all sinners, all sin, and He gives the power to do that. I'd call that nice myself. That's what I was talking about in context if anybody cares about context.

Christianity is about turning sinners into saints, that means losing your sins. That's what Jesus came to do, that's what He died for.

ABE: I'll elaborate:

That means prostitutes -- Mary Magdalene gave that up; tax collectors who defrauded the people -- Matthew and Zacchaeus in that case, and Paul gives a long list of sinners in 1 Corinthians 6 that will not inherit the kingdom of God but goes on to say how many of the Christians he was preaching to had once also lived like that, but that when they became followers of Christ they no longer practiced those sins:

1Co 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
/ABE

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Heathen, posted 05-16-2014 2:26 AM Faith has responded
 Message 282 by frako, posted 05-16-2014 2:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

Heathen
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 281 of 1309 (727170)
05-16-2014 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Faith
05-15-2014 11:59 PM


Re: Becoming a Christian means giving up your sins
So, Christianity means not sinning.
Christianity is about turning sinners into saints, that means losing your sins.

Do you sin? are you going to heaven?

Your reply seems to state that only those who stop sinning win salvation.

but that when they became followers of Christ they no longer practiced those sins

that sure as hell sounds like salvation through works to me.

nor adulterers, nor homosexuals..., nor covetous, nor drunkards

So from this I assume that these cake shops will be refusing to make a wedding cake for:
- anyone who has divorced and is remarrying?
- or anyone who covets their neighbours cake,
- or any alcoholics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 11:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Faith, posted 05-16-2014 6:23 AM Heathen has responded

frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 282 of 1309 (727171)
05-16-2014 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Faith
05-15-2014 11:59 PM


Re: Becoming a Christian means giving up your sins
Jesus kept company with sinners, but sinners all have to give up their sin to be saved, meaning to be a Christian, all sinners, all sin, and He gives the power to do that. I'd call that nice myself. That's what I was talking about in context if anybody cares about context.

Christianity is about turning sinners into saints, that means losing your sins. That's what Jesus came to do, that's what He died for.

ABE: I'll elaborate:

That means prostitutes -- Mary Magdalene gave that up; tax collectors who defrauded the people -- Matthew and Zacchaeus in that case, and Paul gives a long list of sinners in 1 Corinthians 6 that will not inherit the kingdom of God but goes on to say how many of the Christians he was preaching to had once also lived like that, but that when they became followers of Christ they no longer practiced those sins:

so why not go the Jesus way: ah you gay couple here be your cake for your wedding, enjoy it here on earth but i would not be a Christian if i don't tell you you will burn in hell for all eternity if you get married, god loves you.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 11:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 05-16-2014 12:03 PM frako has not yet responded

frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 283 of 1309 (727173)
05-16-2014 3:37 AM


This kind of fits here LOL

Straight the new Gay

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 557 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 284 of 1309 (727176)
05-16-2014 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Heathen
05-16-2014 2:26 AM


Re: Becoming a Christian means giving up your sins
Do you sin? are you going to heaven?
Your reply seems to state that only those who stop sinning win salvation.

Those who stop sinning do so because they have been saved and they do it in God's power. But I already explained to you that beiievers may nevertheless sin, but they won't do it habitually, which you seem to have forgotten already.

Here's where I told you the difference between a Christian who sins occasionally and a practicing or habitual sinner who is not a Christian.

Then you go on to misinterpret the point about the wedding cake. It really shouldn't be that hard to figure out. A wedding cake is a specially ordered service that is specific to the celebration of a wedding. That's what makes it a problem for a Christian baker who has been asked to make such a cake for a gay wedding. As I've also said over and over there would be no problem for the baker with any other kind of bakery goods a gay person wanted for any other kind of celebration or any other reason. It does take a little exercise of the brain to follow it but it really isn't all that difficult.

So, failing to exercise your brain you think all sinners should be denied wedding cakes although weddings are not the issue with other kinds of sinners.

nor adulterers, nor homosexuals..., nor covetous, nor drunkards

So from this I assume that these cake shops will be refusing to make a wedding cake for:

- anyone who has divorced and is remarrying?
- or anyone who covets their neighbours cake,
- or any alcoholics?

I'll agree with you that there could be an issue with those who have divorced and are remarrying, but not all Christians share the view that this violates scriptural standards. Those who do should refuse to make a wedding cake in that situation too.

But coveters and alcoholics would not be celebrating covetousness or alcoholism by ordering a cake so you are having some logic problem here, as you and others have been having all along with this really very simple situation. I already also pointed out other situations where even you would probably refuse to make a cake in celebration of some kind of event you consider to be an offense to your moral code.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Heathen, posted 05-16-2014 2:26 AM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 286 by Heathen, posted 05-16-2014 9:12 AM Faith has responded
 Message 289 by Omnivorous, posted 05-16-2014 4:19 PM Faith has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 1309 (727177)
05-16-2014 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Faith
05-16-2014 6:23 AM


Re: Becoming a Christian means giving up your sins
But I already explained to you that beiievers may nevertheless sin, but they won't do it habitually, which you seem to have forgotten already.

That is simply not true. It is easy to name prominent habitually sinning Christians who later repented. Were they not Christians before repenting? Then what does that do to your definition?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Faith, posted 05-16-2014 6:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

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