Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 269 of 1309 (727044)
05-15-2014 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 8:12 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Thanks but now I KNOW I'm not following you so I'll have to come back to this later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 8:12 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Heathen, posted 05-15-2014 6:14 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 270 of 1309 (727045)
05-15-2014 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Heathen
05-15-2014 2:45 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
No, salvation is by grace alone as scripture says, not by works lest anyone should boast, as scripture says. Works are the result of grace, building on salvation but not in any way the cause of salvation.
I can of course keep repeating this in the teeth of your refusal to understand it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Heathen, posted 05-15-2014 2:45 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Heathen, posted 05-15-2014 6:06 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 277 of 1309 (727139)
05-15-2014 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Taq
05-15-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Until you start living by the edicts of religions you don't belong to, don't expect others to live by the edicts of your religion.
I'm talking only about people who think they are Christians. You might learn to read in context.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Taq, posted 05-15-2014 11:36 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Tangle, posted 05-15-2014 4:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 279 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-15-2014 4:23 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 280 of 1309 (727156)
05-15-2014 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Tangle
05-15-2014 4:10 PM


Becoming a Christian means giving up your sins
Once upon a time being a Christian meant being a nice person. Someone who followed gentle Jesus, meek and mild - someone who washed the feet of sinners, defended prostitutes and walked amongst lepers. He's exactly the kind of bloke that would have been on the side of the persecuted homosexual. When did those values change Faith? Why have made Jesus into someone that isn't nice?
Jesus kept company with sinners, but sinners all have to give up their sin to be saved, meaning to be a Christian, all sinners, all sin, and He gives the power to do that. I'd call that nice myself. That's what I was talking about in context if anybody cares about context.
Christianity is about turning sinners into saints, that means losing your sins. That's what Jesus came to do, that's what He died for.
ABE: I'll elaborate:
That means prostitutes -- Mary Magdalene gave that up; tax collectors who defrauded the people -- Matthew and Zacchaeus in that case, and Paul gives a long list of sinners in 1 Corinthians 6 that will not inherit the kingdom of God but goes on to say how many of the Christians he was preaching to had once also lived like that, but that when they became followers of Christ they no longer practiced those sins:
1Co 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
/ABE
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Tangle, posted 05-15-2014 4:10 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Heathen, posted 05-16-2014 2:26 AM Faith has replied
 Message 282 by frako, posted 05-16-2014 2:57 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 284 of 1309 (727176)
05-16-2014 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Heathen
05-16-2014 2:26 AM


Re: Becoming a Christian means giving up your sins
Do you sin? are you going to heaven?
Your reply seems to state that only those who stop sinning win salvation.
Those who stop sinning do so because they have been saved and they do it in God's power. But I already explained to you that beiievers may nevertheless sin, but they won't do it habitually, which you seem to have forgotten already.
Here's where I told you the difference between a Christian who sins occasionally and a practicing or habitual sinner who is not a Christian.
Then you go on to misinterpret the point about the wedding cake. It really shouldn't be that hard to figure out. A wedding cake is a specially ordered service that is specific to the celebration of a wedding. That's what makes it a problem for a Christian baker who has been asked to make such a cake for a gay wedding. As I've also said over and over there would be no problem for the baker with any other kind of bakery goods a gay person wanted for any other kind of celebration or any other reason. It does take a little exercise of the brain to follow it but it really isn't all that difficult.
So, failing to exercise your brain you think all sinners should be denied wedding cakes although weddings are not the issue with other kinds of sinners.
nor adulterers, nor homosexuals..., nor covetous, nor drunkards
So from this I assume that these cake shops will be refusing to make a wedding cake for:
- anyone who has divorced and is remarrying?
- or anyone who covets their neighbours cake,
- or any alcoholics?
I'll agree with you that there could be an issue with those who have divorced and are remarrying, but not all Christians share the view that this violates scriptural standards. Those who do should refuse to make a wedding cake in that situation too.
But coveters and alcoholics would not be celebrating covetousness or alcoholism by ordering a cake so you are having some logic problem here, as you and others have been having all along with this really very simple situation. I already also pointed out other situations where even you would probably refuse to make a cake in celebration of some kind of event you consider to be an offense to your moral code.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Heathen, posted 05-16-2014 2:26 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2014 7:38 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 286 by Heathen, posted 05-16-2014 9:12 AM Faith has replied
 Message 289 by Omnivorous, posted 05-16-2014 4:19 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 287 of 1309 (727185)
05-16-2014 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Heathen
05-16-2014 9:12 AM


Re: Becoming a Christian means giving up your sins
I've said all there is to say on the subject, I disagree with you about all the rest, take it or leave it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Heathen, posted 05-16-2014 9:12 AM Heathen has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 291 of 1309 (727257)
05-16-2014 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Omnivorous
05-16-2014 4:19 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
You seem to be missing the point, Omni.
The wedding cake scenario is a very specific situation, where the baker's conscience is actively engaged: he's told it's for a gay wedding and in fact I suppose the figures on the cake make that clear.
As I've tried to say over and over here, this is not about selling anything else to gays or to any other "unrepentant sinners," this is specifically about the situation where the baker, or any other Christian business owner, has been baited into making a conscience-based decision. And these situations are in fact set up by provocateurs. Clearly they don't have to go to a Christian baker for their wedding cake, there are plenty of other bakeries around. This is all to force the baker to refuse them so they can sue him and get judges to decide for their rights over the Christian's rights.
I also gave other examples back there somewhere that should require you to wonder whether, in the same position, you would be willing to make a cake for a Nazi celebration or something that required you to put an inscription on the cake extolling white supremacy or, I don't know, you pick the situation. There must be some situations where you too would find your morality compromised and feel obliged to refuse.
And just as with the Christian baker I would assume you would know the people with the views you hate most are out there in the public and probably going to be requiring your services along with everybody else, and it wouldn't make any difference to you just as it doesn't to the Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Omnivorous, posted 05-16-2014 4:19 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2014 4:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 293 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-16-2014 4:54 PM Faith has replied
 Message 300 by Omnivorous, posted 05-16-2014 5:45 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 294 of 1309 (727261)
05-16-2014 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by PaulK
05-16-2014 4:53 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
Excuse me? The point is they did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2014 4:53 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2014 5:03 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 295 of 1309 (727262)
05-16-2014 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Dr Adequate
05-16-2014 4:54 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
Evidence is that they didn't need to go to a Christian baker and they could also not have sued. That's good enough evidence for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-16-2014 4:54 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-16-2014 5:11 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 297 of 1309 (727266)
05-16-2014 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by PaulK
05-16-2014 5:03 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
what's obvious to you is a total mystery to me but I guess you hsave no interest in making sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2014 5:03 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2014 5:18 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 301 of 1309 (727281)
05-17-2014 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Omnivorous
05-16-2014 5:45 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
No. Nobody has any business judging anybody's sin or what they want your services for unless you happen to know they are planning something criminal, this isn't hypocrisy this is just life.
To answer your question, I'd say I would refuse to decorate a cake with a white supremacist slogan, but I wouldn't refuse to sell a cake to a white supremacist, who could take the "25 Wonderful Years!" cake to the party celebrating an anniversary of his particular pocket of nasty--
But neither would the Christian baker. Why aren't you getting this point?
Your idea that there's some kind of pretense involved in simply minding my own business, as in hiding behind a "cloak of ignorance," would mean nobody could live at all in this world, we'd all have to become obnoxious busybodies. I don't need to know everything about other people's business. If I'm not writing the inscription on the cake they can do whatever they want with it, it's none of my business.
The issue I'm talking about comes up ONLY when someone requires ME, me personally, to do something that actively and consciously violates my conscience or my moral standards.
ABE: Missing my own point: The point isn't sin and sinners as such, it isn't homosexuality as such or any kind of sin as such, in the bakery case: it's specifically the issue of gay marriage and their forcing the baker implicitly to validate it by specifically making a special wedding cake for it. That's been the context all along and over and over I've said that there is no problem with doing ordinary business with gays or anybody. '
I really don't see why this is so hard to understand. Just as you don't care what a white supremacist does with a generic cake, neither does the Christian baker care what a gay person does with a generic cake.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Omnivorous, posted 05-16-2014 5:45 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Larni, posted 05-17-2014 7:20 AM Faith has replied
 Message 306 by ringo, posted 05-17-2014 1:06 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 303 of 1309 (727306)
05-17-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Larni
05-17-2014 7:20 AM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
But it is the law and you have to obey it.
No I do not. Laws that directly oppose God are not to be obeyed. All this is going to do is persecute decent people, probably eventually send them to prison. But that's the way the country is going.
Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
No, I do not have to be subject to laws that contradict God's word.
How is this different from a member of NAMBLA refusing to obey the law because it conflicts with what he feels is moral?
Well, you can decide between us if you want. There may be some here who would put NAMBLA above Christians.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Larni, posted 05-17-2014 7:20 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2014 12:18 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 305 by PaulK, posted 05-17-2014 12:22 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 307 of 1309 (727339)
05-17-2014 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by ringo
05-17-2014 1:06 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
I don't see why baking a cake should violate anybody's conscience.
Such a simple thing, such an obvious thing, explained over and over and over. Not "baking a cake," but constructing a special-ordered WEDDING cake for a gay wedding. Like if you were asked to inscribe "White supremacy reigns" on a cake. Would you do it? If not, surely you can see that there are some specific instances where a person's conscience would be forced into a corner by some requests.
Would it be reasonable for a sales clerk at The Gap to refuse to sell socks to either of the grooms?
No. Selling socks doesn't validate gay marriage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by ringo, posted 05-17-2014 1:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by ringo, posted 05-17-2014 3:02 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 309 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2014 3:36 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 310 of 1309 (727349)
05-17-2014 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by New Cat's Eye
05-17-2014 3:36 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
Oh I'll be a hypocrite and any other kind of evil thing you can come up with no matter what I say.
The issue is not what church is doing the wedding, but who is getting married. Gay marriage is not acceptable but heterosexual marriage of course is.
I can hardly wait to find out what other totally irrelevant objection can be thought up against me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2014 3:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by PaulK, posted 05-17-2014 3:46 PM Faith has replied
 Message 315 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2014 4:04 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 313 of 1309 (727354)
05-17-2014 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by PaulK
05-17-2014 3:46 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
I agree so I would limit the heterosexual weddings too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by PaulK, posted 05-17-2014 3:46 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Faith, posted 05-17-2014 4:02 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 319 by PaulK, posted 05-18-2014 4:25 AM Faith has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024