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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 481 of 1309 (727892)
05-21-2014 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Faith
05-21-2014 1:12 PM


Re: evidence
Faith, what evidence do you have that granting gays the benefit of the non-discrimination laws will lead to persection of "Christians" ? And spare us the unsupported assertions, and fantasies. I mean actual evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 1:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 1:47 PM PaulK has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 482 of 1309 (727894)
05-21-2014 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by PaulK
05-21-2014 1:43 PM


Re: evidence
I thought I'd given you evidence. It's just begun. Give it a few years and I'll have a lot of it for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2014 1:43 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2014 2:04 PM Faith has taken no action
 Message 485 by JonF, posted 05-21-2014 3:22 PM Faith has taken no action

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 483 of 1309 (727898)
05-21-2014 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Faith
05-21-2014 1:47 PM


Re: evidence
You haven't given any real evidence that there's any intent to take things as far as actual persecution. Christians are still protected by the same laws. The Constitution still forbids laws directly targeting Christians. There's no sign of any move to change any of that. And even your "enemies", such as the ACLU would oppose attempts to change that.

So what evidence do you have?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 1:47 PM Faith has taken no action

Modulous
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(5)
Message 484 of 1309 (727899)
05-21-2014 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Faith
05-20-2014 10:29 PM


Re: evidence
Article on bakery "facing hundreds of thousands of dollars fine" for refusal to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple

But they have in fact, not been fined. Nor are they necessarily even going to court.

Same situation in Colorado only at the time of the report no fines had yet been levied.

As the article states - no fines were levied.

Here's a story about the Christian photographer in New Mexico

Who wasn't fined.

And a similar situation involving a Washington State florist

No fine.

You can also google lawsuits against churches over gay weddings.

I did. The top search results are about churches who have issued legal proceedings because of same-sex marriage. And some blogs about churches fearing being sued.

Where is YOUR evidence that they weren't fined because everything I've heard is that they were.

Since it hasn't been to court yet, you've heard wrong.

The pastors who have been arrested also weren't kept in jail. But some have definitely been arrested and that's enormity enough in a formerly Christian nation.

Like whom? A google search shows me pastors being arrested for child abuse, and pastors faking being arrested - but I don't see anything pertinent.

It doesn't matter right now what the specific outcome of a case is.

Well, actually, since you asserted the specific outcome was being fined - the fact that you were not telling the truth does matter.

Do Biblical Christians consider saying falsehoods doesn't matter?

What the stories show is that there is a lot of conflict going on between the gay rights people and Christians and that the courts are against the Christians.

Yes, it shows there is conflict. It does not show that the courts are against the Christians. Indeed, in Canada, a Muslim barber was sued for not cutting the hair of a lesbian and the Canadian laws are quite close to the US ones. So no, it's not about the Christians.

These are early cases, we're up to about the early 30s in Germany.

German laws in the early 30s:

Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service (Jews out of government)
Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring (sterilize the gypsys)
Paragraph 175 (criminalize homosexual sex (1871) which was expanded in the mid-30s to close loopholes, and was used as the pretence to send homosexuals to concentration/death camps.)

And the US laws you are complaining about?
Like the Ralph Civil Rights Act:

quote:
All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free and
equal, and no matter what their sex, race, color, religion,
ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, genetic
information, marital status, or sexual orientation are entitled to
the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities,
privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind
whatsoever.

I don't think your comparison works. Or is sane.

The fact that Christians and churches are being baited like this is a sign of more to come.

Going to a place of business and offering to give custom, is not baiting. Or, in the cases we have discussed so far, are you suggesting that the person ascertains the business owner's opinions without asking them?

Hey, I put this one up and this photographer WAS fined and the Supreme Court refused to hear the case:

http://www.theguardian.com/...rriage-new-mexico-photographer

Except they weren't fined, regardless of what the media tells you. I provided you with the actual decision in Elane Photography v Willock.

They were told they had to pay the plaintiff's legal fees, that's it. Obviously the plaintiffs shouldn't have to pay, nor should the lawyers work for free, making the tax payers pay is obviously out. So who if not the defendants that lost?

Also the story about the bakery that I posted said that the business was forced to close, and here's that story told by someone else:

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=14811

The business is still operating. It wasn't forced to close.

Their business was harmed by their choice. They could have simply opted to stop selling wedding related bakery products if they could not do so within the law and their conscience. They opted to try and profit illegally.

Were they fined?

No. It hasn't been to court.

But the story shows the basic attitude toward Christians that is shared by all here at EvC.

The Christians I know in real life are super sweet. I offer free tech support to one of them on a regular basis. She gave me her old computer as a thanks. Over 50% of my family are Christian. I love them all.

We don't like anybody, regardless of their religion or lack thereof, that discriminates against homosexuals or black people etc. You have just equated 'Christian' with 'bigoted', which is not true. We criticize the bigoted Muslims and atheists too.

The Colorado baker wasn't fined but the court tried to force him to bake a wedding cake anyway. Last I heard he refused and is facing prison time.
http://www.breitbart.com/...l-for-Declining-Gay-Wedding-Cake

That's not true, not even Breitbart's site claims that. Nobody tried to force him to bake a wedding cake.

The court said he had a choice: Serve wedding cakes to homosexual couples and heterosexual couples in the future, or from here on don't serve wedding cakes to either.

Either would comply with the law.

Christians leave gays alone.

It was a Christian that tried to screw Lawrence and Garner's life up after they were discovered having sex in a private home.

Being forced to close their shop even if they continued at home is a pretty big price to pay I'd say.

Making bad business decisions can affect your bottom line. Maybe these small businesses will realize they need to change their business model or it could cause them problems.

If you'll excuse the turn of phrase - it's called covering your ass.

No, we leave them alone. It is they who come baiting us to refuse them service. They do not have to go to Christian businesses, there are plenty of others who would serve them just fine.

Didn't the racists use this exact line of reasoning to justify refusing to serve non-white people?

There is a lot of legal tradition in the US which holds that this is bad because of the harm it causes individuals and society.

Businesses used to have the right to refuse service, you remember the signs that said "No shoes, no shirt, no service" and "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Businesses still have the right to refuse service. As long as they don't only refuse Jews or Christians.

You all turn this into a racist thing but the fact is that it hardly ever was a racist thing.

Well no. But when it was a racist thing - we thought we'd be able to both agree that this harmed society and individuals.

. In any case refusing service on the basis of race is opposed by the Bible, but Christians must refuse service when forced to support something in violation of God's law, such as gay marriage.

Then they should stop operating non-religious public businesses that put them in these difficult positions. Cake makers can simply stop making wedding cake, but continue making other cakes.

Like everyone else on this thread you also prefer terms that misrepresent the case.

You've misrepresented the law and the cases quite spectacularly.

"Offends me?" No, offends God, is a violation of God's law.

I think God can handle judgement and punishment for himself.

We oppose gay marriage so we're being set up to act on it and be persecuted for it, having OUR freedoms violated, but that doesn't matter, only gay freedoms matter, not Christians.'

You know, working in a the wedding industry or working in associated industries, is not mandatory.

There are plenty of industries that it would offend me to work for. I would not work for a weapons manufacturer or a short term pay-day loan company with APRs in the hundreds or thousands of percent. I probably wouldn't work at a church or for a Christian bookstore, either (though I have applied to work at a Christian school, didn't get it).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Faith, posted 05-20-2014 10:29 PM Faith has taken no action

JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 485 of 1309 (727903)
05-21-2014 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Faith
05-21-2014 1:47 PM


Re: evidence
I thought I'd given you evidence.

You have not tried to provide any evidence for pastors being arrested or gays baiting shopowners. You've been asked for evidence. But I suppose we're dishonest as usual because we aren't doing your job of digging up such evidence.

My bet is that no such evidence exists, especially the pastors being arrested. Can you imagine how batshit crazy the right wing media would go if such a thing actually happened?

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 1:47 PM Faith has taken no action

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(6)
Message 486 of 1309 (727904)
05-21-2014 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Faith
05-21-2014 1:12 PM


Re: evidence
You, like the rest of the complaining Christians about this issue, have no clue what you are talking about. This isn't about forcing you to accept gay marriage or even support it. It is about offering the service you have agreed to offer in the public sector to all members of the public sector, regardless of who or what they are. To not offer a service that is freely offered to other people is discrimination, plain and simple, and that is not the way for a forward thinking nation to be.

Faith writes:

No, we leave them alone. It is they who come baiting us to refuse them service. They do not have to go to Christian businesses, there are plenty of others who would serve them just fine.

Where is your proof that they targeted this business? Perhaps they simply heard from a friend about their wedding cake, or saw a cake designed by this company at another wedding and wanted a similar well done service. However, once that service was denied (a service procided to any other person (and dogs in the Colorado case)) it becomes a discrimination case and they have every reason to fight that.

Faith writes:

Businesses used to have the right to refuse service, you remember the signs that said "No shoes, no shirt, no service" and "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Do you have any idea of what you are even talking about? No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service is considered a safety issue, similar to why when working in a restaurant I cannot wear open toed shoes. The origin of the rule was based upon beachside areas where surfers would come in and carry sand everywhere. "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to anyone" does not mean anyone and if you ever worked in sales, you would know that. I have been forced to serve a table on two separate occasions where the gentleman was completely tattooed in swastikas, an ideology I abhor. However, as he was not being a rude guest, he was not causing troubles for other patrons, he was not drunk or unruly, there was no legal reason that I could refuse service and my manager knew we would be sued for doing so. The sign is primarily there as a reason for cutting individuals off from alcoholic beverages or to maintain numbers below the maximum occupancy. It definitely does not cover them to refuse service to someone based on a protected class, such as sexual identity.

Source

Other source is the nine years of experience I have serving tables and the very limited amount of time (in any type of restaurant) that this right to refuse was ever used outside of cutting off alcohol service.

Faith writes:

You all turn this into a racist thing but the fact is that it hardly ever was a racist thing. In any case refusing service on the basis of race is opposed by the Bible, but Christians must refuse service when forced to support something in violation of God's law, such as gay marriage.

You are correct, it is definitely not racist, since it does not involve an individual's race. However, it is discriminatory because you are refusing a service that you would willingly offer to anyone else in the public sector. Comparisons to racism do not fall apart here because both of those situations, whether involving race or sexual identity, involved discrimination against a protected group by individuals offering goods and services in the public sector. You want to avoid baking your cakes for a gay wedding than open your cake business as a Christian only cake business. While I still find this discriminatory, I think if it is a private business you can do what you damn well please with it. Once you offer the services to everyone, it must include everyone.

Also, Christians are not being asked to approve of gay marriage. Think it is sick, twisted and wrong as much as you want, but if you offer products to the public, you do not get to pick and choose which members of the public you serve.

Faith writes:

Most folks have been sadly propagandized by political correctness for so long they haven't a clue.

While I agree that political correctness occasionally takes things too far, (I was raised on Mel Brooks movie and he would not know PC if it punched him in his Jewish nose. ) you are not complaining about political correctness. You are asking for the right to discriminate. To offer your goods and services to all members of society, except one group because your religious beliefs supersede this. Well, that doesn't change the fact that it is discrimination against a protected class and that you are not even being asked to break God's Law. I never read it in the Bible that thou shalt not make a cake for two men entering a loving and committed relationship together. Sure, God's law tells you not to be gay (not that that matters, since most Christians find other things in the Bible they aren't supposed to do, but do them anyway) but nowhere does it say not to offer your services to them equally.

Faith writes:

And there's the propaganda. I'm sure it convinces you and all those other folks you mention, which merely means you are going to be the persecutors when push comes to shove. Like everyone else on this thread you also prefer terms that misrepresent the case. "Offends me?" No, offends God, is a violation of God's law. Has nothing whatever to do with me personally. If I'm a Christian I refuse to have a part in violating God's law. So "society" will just have to throw me in the dungeon.

Who cares if it offends God? First off, you cannot choose to make your religion more important than others (or lack thereof) in this secular society. Your religion does not get special treatment. You have the right in your churches to refuse to marry gay people, and while I don't agree with that stance, I will be one of the first to defend it for your group. However, when it comes to state issued marriage licenses, your religion has nothing to say on the topic. First off, many Christian religions do not even recognize a state performed marriage as valid in God's eyes. It is not a religious ceremony, have you ever been to a non-religious wedding? There is nothing there to offend God because God is not even involved and he/she/it should not be. The individuals are being married by the secular state, not the religious. Your martyr complex is ridiculous and if some agent of the state tried to jail you for refusing service, I would claim they had overstepped authority. However, allowing the individual you discriminated against to recoup some damages from you....nothing wrong with that, it was your hatred and bigotry that caused you to be punished for a decision to knowingly discriminate against someone because of who they are.

Faith writes:

Yeah you've all been pushing this line for the whole thread. You ARE attacking Christian beliefs and that's all this is all about in the end. We oppose gay marriage so we're being set up to act on it and be persecuted for it, having OUR freedoms violated, but that doesn't matter, only gay freedoms matter, not Christians.' Gay marriage is a violation of God's law. Also of common sense, but common sense no longer exists. Homosexuals are just a species of sinner, they are not a special human class, but you have made them into that so now you can persecute those who rae of a different opinion. The devil has done his work SO well, one does really have to admire his effectiveness at bamboozling the human race.

We are not attacking Christian belief, because we explicitly say..."Believe what you want and think what you want" However, if you want to act on those thoughts, remember that you began a business in the public sector to offer goods and services to individuals in society. These individuals, whether you agree with their views or not, are free to make their own choices, which do not have to coincide with your beliefs. There is no requirement for them bow to the line in the sand Christians are trying to draw. If they are getting married (since it is legal in the state where these cases occurred), then any bakery that offers its services to the public sector must be willing to provide that service for law-abiding citizens. Otherwise, get out of the public sector and create some private company where you can discriminate to your heart's content. But....a rose by any other name is still a rose, and discrimination, whether in the name of Christianity or racism, is still discrimination.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 1:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 5:46 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has taken no action

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 487 of 1309 (727912)
05-21-2014 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
05-21-2014 3:31 PM


Re: evidence
You, like the rest of the complaining Christians about this issue, have no clue what you are talking about. This isn't about forcing you to accept gay marriage or even support it. It is about offering the service you have agreed to offer in the public sector to all members of the public sector, regardless of who or what they are. To not offer a service that is freely offered to other people is discrimination, plain and simple, and that is not the way for a forward thinking nation to be.

Of course it's "discrimination." We refuse to serve a situation that requires us to dishonor God's law. Yep. "Forward thinking" indeed, more like backward-downward thinking, losing plain common sense, choosing to support a class of sinners over Christians. Good show there, and I'd just like to remind you that what you think is progress is only going to bring God's judgment down on the nation more and more.

No, we leave them alone. It is they who come baiting us to refuse them service. They do not have to go to Christian businesses, there are plenty of others who would serve them just fine.

Where is your proof that they targeted this business? Perhaps they simply heard from a friend about their wedding cake, or saw a cake designed by this company at another wedding and wanted a similar well done service. However, once that service was denied (a service procided to any other person (and dogs in the Colorado case)) it becomes a discrimination case and they have every reason to fight that.

Only from a vindictive mentality. It's possible it happened naturally in a case or two but then why sue the business? That suggests a persecutorial mentality. And watch -- there's going to be a lot more of this coming up. Instead of doing the sensible thing and seeking out nonChristian businesses, they are clearly targeting them.

Faith writes:
Businesses used to have the right to refuse service, you remember the signs that said "No shoes, no shirt, no service" and "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Do you have any idea of what you are even talking about? No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service is considered a safety issue, similar to why when working in a restaurant I cannot wear open toed shoes. The origin of the rule was based upon beachside areas where surfers would come in and carry sand everywhere. "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to anyone" does not mean anyone and if you ever worked in sales, you would know that. I have been forced to serve a table on two separate occasions where the gentleman was completely tattooed in swastikas, an ideology I abhor. However, as he was not being a rude guest, he was not causing troubles for other patrons, he was not drunk or unruly, there was no legal reason that I could refuse service and my manager knew we would be sued for doing so. The sign is primarily there as a reason for cutting individuals off from alcoholic beverages or to maintain numbers below the maximum occupancy. It definitely does not cover them to refuse service to someone based on a protected class, such as sexual identity.

I'm sure you know. But it said "for any reason" once upon a time. It is tyranny to force a private business to serve someone they don't want to serve, except for racist reasons, that I'll grant.

Other source is the nine years of experience I have serving tables and the very limited amount of time (in any type of restaurant) that this right to refuse was ever used outside of cutting off alcohol service.

Nevertheless it is a right and it doesn't say it's for cutting off alcohol service. The signs always said "for any reason."

Faith writes:
You all turn this into a racist thing but the fact is that it hardly ever was a racist thing. In any case refusing service on the basis of race is opposed by the Bible, but Christians must refuse service when forced to support something in violation of God's law, such as gay marriage.

You are correct, it is definitely not racist, since it does not involve an individual's race. However, it is discriminatory because you are refusing a service that you would willingly offer to anyone else in the public sector. Comparisons to racism do not fall apart here because both of those situations, whether involving race or sexual identity, involved discrimination against a protected group by individuals offering goods and services in the public sector. You want to avoid baking your cakes for a gay wedding than open your cake business as a Christian only cake business. While I still find this discriminatory, I think if it is a private business you can do what you damn well please with it. Once you offer the services to everyone, it must include everyone.

A Christian only cake business? I'm sure that's illegal isn't it under these absurd laws?

Hey, I don't know why you feel it necessary to go on browbeating me. I've conceded that the law has won and Christians are going to have to be punished. What's your point? I guess you have to force your opinion on us too? Whatever DID happen to our freedoms? Gone gone gone. Only certain opinions count, only certain classes of people have freedoms.

Also, Christians are not being asked to approve of gay marriage. Think it is sick, twisted and wrong as much as you want, but if you offer products to the public, you do not get to pick and choose which members of the public you serve.

Guess not, haven't I agreed that we'll take our punishment for daring to refuse to do anything that violates God's law? What are you getting out of this sanctimonious tirade anyway?

Faith writes:
Most folks have been sadly propagandized by political correctness for so long they haven't a clue.

While I agree that political correctness occasionally takes things too far, (I was raised on Mel Brooks movie and he would not know PC if it punched him in his Jewish nose. ) you are not complaining about political correctness. You are asking for the right to discriminate.

The word "discriminate" is a politically correct whitewashing word being misapplied and I'll either say Yes I am, I refuse your categories, or No I'm not, because I refuse your categories. What difference does it make? I refuse to acknowledge that gay marriage is a category I am required to respect because it violates God's law, and again, throw me in the dungeon, that's all your haranguing is going to come to in the end anyway.

To offer your goods and services to all members of society, except one group because your religious beliefs supersede this. Well, that doesn't change the fact that it is discrimination against a protected class and that you are not even being asked to break God's Law.

ABE: IF I am asked to make a cake that honors gay marriage /ABE I am being asked to dishonor God's law. And doing that does in fact make me complicit in the sin.

I never read it in the Bible that thou shalt not make a cake for two men entering a loving and committed relationship together. Sure, God's law tells you not to be gay (not that that matters, since most Christians find other things in the Bible they aren't supposed to do, but do them anyway) but nowhere does it say not to offer your services to them equally.

I guess I'm supposed to agree with your assessment, huh? Because you are so convinced you are right. My opinion doesn't count. What you get out of the Bible and what I get out of it are apparently different things, but I'm going to be forced to accept your version of it, not allowed to have my own.

Faith writes:
And there's the propaganda. I'm sure it convinces you and all those other folks you mention, which merely means you are going to be the persecutors when push comes to shove. Like everyone else on this thread you also prefer terms that misrepresent the case. "Offends me?" No, offends God, is a violation of God's law. Has nothing whatever to do with me personally. If I'm a Christian I refuse to have a part in violating God's law. So "society" will just have to throw me in the dungeon.

Who cares if it offends God?

Obviously, you don't, and once again what you think is what I should think, and not only SHOULD think but MUST think because if I ever act on what I think in a way that offends what YOU think I can be fined and if I can't pay the fine I'll lose my business and go to jail. What a great free country we have.

First off, you cannot choose to make your religion more important than others (or lack thereof) in this secular society.

Obviously not, not in this NEW REVISED version of our society I can't. That's what this whole discussion is about, haven't you noticed? I am not allowed to act on my Biblical beliefs because people of your beliefs say I can't.

Your religion does not get special treatment.

Obviously not. Too bad for me, too bad for the nation, but obviously not. Only this newly invented oppressed class, which amounts to 4% of the population, gets special treatment, over millions who object to the whole idea of gay marriage.

You have the right in your churches to refuse to marry gay people, and while I don't agree with that stance, I will be one of the first to defend it for your group.

Well, you are among the few who grant that right as they are trying to bring down the churches on this point too, so if you really desire to defend us you'd better give up your job and make a career out of it.

However, when it comes to state issued marriage licenses, your religion has nothing to say on the topic. First off, many Christian religions do not even recognize a state performed marriage as valid in God's eyes. It is not a religious ceremony, have you ever been to a non-religious wedding? There is nothing there to offend God because God is not even involved and he/she/it should not be. The individuals are being married by the secular state, not the religious.

Golly gee, what a SURPRISE, why I had no IDEA!

But there is nothing about what they are doing that violates God's law so I have no reason to object.

Your martyr complex is ridiculous and if some agent of the state tried to jail you for refusing service, I would claim they had overstepped authority. However, allowing the individual you discriminated against to recoup some damages from you....nothing wrong with that, it was your hatred and bigotry that caused you to be punished for a decision to knowingly discriminate against someone because of who they are.

Well, can't get blood out of a turnip, so off to the dungeon I go.

Faith writes:
Yeah you've all been pushing this line for the whole thread. You ARE attacking Christian beliefs and that's all this is all about in the end. We oppose gay marriage so we're being set up to act on it and be persecuted for it, having OUR freedoms violated, but that doesn't matter, only gay freedoms matter, not Christians.' Gay marriage is a violation of God's law. Also of common sense, but common sense no longer exists. Homosexuals are just a species of sinner, they are not a special human class, but you have made them into that so now you can persecute those who rae of a different opinion. The devil has done his work SO well, one does really have to admire his effectiveness at bamboozling the human race.

We are not attacking Christian belief,

OH YES YOU ARE. There is no such thing as a belief that is really a belief that doesn't take action in the world.

because we explicitly say..."Believe what you want and think what you want"

Yes, that IS what you say, defining what belief is for us, thanks so much. Again, there is no such thing as a genuine belief that doesn't act in the world.

However, if you want to act on those thoughts, remember that you began a business in the public sector to offer goods and services to individuals in society. These individuals, whether you agree with their views or not, are free to make their own choices, which do not have to coincide with your beliefs. There is no requirement for them bow to the line in the sand Christians are trying to draw.

Of course not, it's only CHRISTIANS who have to toe the line THEY draw in the sand, it is only CHRISTIANS who are not free to make our own choices which supposedly do not have to coincide with your or their beliefs except that according to you they do.

If they are getting married (since it is legal in the state where these cases occurred), then any bakery that offers its services to the public sector must be willing to provide that service for law-abiding citizens.

I guess you can keep saying it and trying to cram it down my throat, but I'll just keep saying sorry I radically disagree and if you legally force it on me I'll take my punishment because I am not ever going to see this your way no matter how you harangue and browbeat me.

Otherwise, get out of the public sector and create some private company where you can discriminate to your heart's content.

Which may be all you are leaving us, yes. Sew a yellow cross to our clothes and confine us to the ghetto where we can't bother all you righteous people. The ovens will be opening soon enough and you'll never have to think about us again.

But....a rose by any other name is still a rose, and discrimination, whether in the name of Christianity or racism, is still discrimination.

So you have said ad nauseam for this entire lecture, and again, I'll take my lumps because your point of view is absolutely odious to me, tyrannical, irrational, ludicrously unjust and odious to the max.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by Modulous, posted 05-21-2014 6:14 PM Faith has replied
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 488 of 1309 (727915)
05-21-2014 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by Faith
05-21-2014 5:46 PM


Re: evidence
I'm sure you know. But it said "for any reason" once upon a time.

Yes, and your interpretation of this was the way things were prior 1964. Then there was this tyrannical civil rights act passed that made America a better place to live.

It is tyranny to force a private business to serve someone they don't want to serve, except for racist reasons, that I'll grant.

Why is it not tyranny in the case of racist reasons?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 5:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 6:18 PM Modulous has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 489 of 1309 (727916)
05-21-2014 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by Modulous
05-21-2014 6:14 PM


Re: evidence
Racism is a very good reason to impose sanctions. And despite the false propaganda it was Christians who opposed it from the beginning in this country. Pseudochristian Democrat southerners wanted it to become the law of the land, so we had a Civil War to decide the issue and they, fortunately, lost.. If all men are created equal that means all. Race is not a behavior, it is a natural endowment.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Modulous, posted 05-21-2014 6:14 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by Modulous, posted 05-21-2014 6:26 PM Faith has replied
 Message 492 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2014 6:29 PM Faith has taken no action
 Message 494 by frako, posted 05-21-2014 6:30 PM Faith has replied
 Message 505 by zoetherat, posted 05-22-2014 1:41 AM Faith has replied
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 490 of 1309 (727917)
05-21-2014 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Faith
05-21-2014 6:18 PM


Re: evidence
Racism is a very good reason to impose sanctions.

You basically said that already.

I asked you why?

If all men are created equal that means all

Yes indeed. And women too, of course.

Race is not a behavior

Neither are sex, colour, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, or sexual orientation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 6:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 6:29 PM Modulous has replied

frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 491 of 1309 (727918)
05-21-2014 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by Faith
05-21-2014 5:46 PM


Re: evidence
Of course it's "discrimination." We refuse to serve a situation that requires us to dishonor God's law. Yep. "Forward thinking" indeed, more like backward-downward thinking, losing plain common sense, choosing to support a class of sinners over Christians. Good show there, and I'd just like to remind you that what you think is progress is only going to bring God's judgment down on the nation more and more.

So let say if another religious sect arrives in america and is pissed for not being able to mutilate their women's genitalia. and would refuse to serve a situation where they where forced to dishonour gods law by not mutilating their women's vaginas. Should they be punished and prosecuted for disobeying the state laws.

oh and yea they would be screaming god will be angry if we dont do this too.

and if you don't realize it your in the same boat as those fucker's, there are some religious practices that society wont allow one of them being discrimination, or segregation. bad day for you but that's how it is. Your particular religion is nothing special religions are a dime a dozen and if every religion gets to have its way well there would be chaos.

And im not an atheist any more i have seen the light yes i am a proud member of the Universal zombie church of holy ringing. Im a true believer in the pot pan and the holly bell too. It has nothing to do with a silly law that gives religions a pass when the state wants to tax their HOLY property, and that my religion finds the home of every member to be the holy of holy sites.

That is what happens when you give concessions to religions and yea its real. the religion formed as the government was about to implement a property tax and we found a loophole.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 5:46 PM Faith has taken no action

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 492 of 1309 (727919)
05-21-2014 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Faith
05-21-2014 6:18 PM


Re: evidence
So you think that the Southern Baptists are pseudo-Christians? And all the segregegationusts? And everyone who pushes the "Curse of Ham" business as a reason to argue that Blacks should be servants?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 6:18 PM Faith has taken no action

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 493 of 1309 (727920)
05-21-2014 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by Modulous
05-21-2014 6:26 PM


Re: evidence
Neither are sex, colour, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, or sexual orientation.

No but homosexual lifestyle IS a behavior, aberrant behavior as understood by the majority of cultures in all time, and defined as a sin by God.

Nobody is discriminating against anyone for "sexual orientation." We are being asked to validate a marriage that is a travesty of marriage and violates God's laws.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by Modulous, posted 05-21-2014 6:26 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Modulous, posted 05-21-2014 6:47 PM Faith has replied
 Message 522 by ringo, posted 05-22-2014 1:03 PM Faith has taken no action

frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 494 of 1309 (727921)
05-21-2014 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Faith
05-21-2014 6:18 PM


Re: evidence
Racism is a very good reason to impose sanctions. And despite the false propaganda it was Christians who opposed it from the beginning in this country. Pseudochristian Democrat southerners wanted it to become the law of the land, so we had a Civil War to decide the issue and they, fortunately, lost.. If all men are created equal that means all. Race is not a behavior, it is a natural endowment.

Thank god we have you else we could not distinguish real Christians to pseudo Christians i mean the nerve of those lying fakers right. But tell me are you sure you are a real Christian because i know some Christians that would call you a pseudo Christian.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 6:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 6:31 PM frako has taken no action

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 495 of 1309 (727922)
05-21-2014 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 494 by frako
05-21-2014 6:30 PM


Re: evidence
I couldn't care less what you think of me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by frako, posted 05-21-2014 6:30 PM frako has taken no action

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