You, like the rest of the complaining Christians about this issue, have no clue what you are talking about. This isn't about forcing you to accept gay marriage or even support it. It is about offering the service you have agreed to offer in the public sector to all members of the public sector, regardless of who or what they are. To not offer a service that is freely offered to other people is discrimination, plain and simple, and that is not the way for a forward thinking nation to be.
Of course it's "discrimination." We refuse to serve a situation that requires us to dishonor God's law. Yep. "Forward thinking" indeed, more like backward-downward thinking, losing plain common sense, choosing to support a class of sinners over Christians. Good show there, and I'd just like to remind you that what you think is progress is only going to bring God's judgment down on the nation more and more.
No, we leave them alone. It is they who come baiting us to refuse them service. They do not have to go to Christian businesses, there are plenty of others who would serve them just fine.
Where is your proof that they targeted this business? Perhaps they simply heard from a friend about their wedding cake, or saw a cake designed by this company at another wedding and wanted a similar well done service. However, once that service was denied (a service procided to any other person (and dogs in the Colorado case)) it becomes a discrimination case and they have every reason to fight that.
Only from a vindictive mentality. It's possible it happened naturally in a case or two but then why sue the business? That suggests a persecutorial mentality. And watch -- there's going to be a lot more of this coming up. Instead of doing the sensible thing and seeking out nonChristian businesses, they are clearly targeting them.
Faith writes:
Businesses used to have the right to refuse service, you remember the signs that said "No shoes, no shirt, no service" and "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."
Do you have any idea of what you are even talking about? No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service is considered a safety issue, similar to why when working in a restaurant I cannot wear open toed shoes. The origin of the rule was based upon beachside areas where surfers would come in and carry sand everywhere. "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to anyone" does not mean anyone and if you ever worked in sales, you would know that. I have been forced to serve a table on two separate occasions where the gentleman was completely tattooed in swastikas, an ideology I abhor. However, as he was not being a rude guest, he was not causing troubles for other patrons, he was not drunk or unruly, there was no legal reason that I could refuse service and my manager knew we would be sued for doing so. The sign is primarily there as a reason for cutting individuals off from alcoholic beverages or to maintain numbers below the maximum occupancy. It definitely does not cover them to refuse service to someone based on a protected class, such as sexual identity.
I'm sure you know. But it said "for any reason" once upon a time. It is tyranny to force a private business to serve someone they don't want to serve, except for racist reasons, that I'll grant.
Other source is the nine years of experience I have serving tables and the very limited amount of time (in any type of restaurant) that this right to refuse was ever used outside of cutting off alcohol service.
Nevertheless it is a right and it doesn't say it's for cutting off alcohol service. The signs always said "for any reason."
Faith writes:
You all turn this into a racist thing but the fact is that it hardly ever was a racist thing. In any case refusing service on the basis of race is opposed by the Bible, but Christians must refuse service when forced to support something in violation of God's law, such as gay marriage.
You are correct, it is definitely not racist, since it does not involve an individual's race. However, it is discriminatory because you are refusing a service that you would willingly offer to anyone else in the public sector. Comparisons to racism do not fall apart here because both of those situations, whether involving race or sexual identity, involved discrimination against a protected group by individuals offering goods and services in the public sector. You want to avoid baking your cakes for a gay wedding than open your cake business as a Christian only cake business. While I still find this discriminatory, I think if it is a private business you can do what you damn well please with it. Once you offer the services to everyone, it must include everyone.
A Christian only cake business? I'm sure that's illegal isn't it under these absurd laws?
Hey, I don't know why you feel it necessary to go on browbeating me. I've conceded that the law has won and Christians are going to have to be punished. What's your point? I guess you have to force your opinion on us too? Whatever DID happen to our freedoms? Gone gone gone. Only certain opinions count, only certain classes of people have freedoms.
Also, Christians are not being asked to approve of gay marriage. Think it is sick, twisted and wrong as much as you want, but if you offer products to the public, you do not get to pick and choose which members of the public you serve.
Guess not, haven't I agreed that we'll take our punishment for daring to refuse to do anything that violates God's law? What are you getting out of this sanctimonious tirade anyway?
Faith writes:
Most folks have been sadly propagandized by political correctness for so long they haven't a clue.
While I agree that political correctness occasionally takes things too far, (I was raised on Mel Brooks movie and he would not know PC if it punched him in his Jewish nose. ) you are not complaining about political correctness. You are asking for the right to discriminate.
The word "discriminate" is a politically correct whitewashing word being misapplied and I'll either say Yes I am, I refuse your categories, or No I'm not, because I refuse your categories. What difference does it make? I refuse to acknowledge that gay marriage is a category I am required to respect because it violates God's law, and again, throw me in the dungeon, that's all your haranguing is going to come to in the end anyway.
To offer your goods and services to all members of society, except one group because your religious beliefs supersede this. Well, that doesn't change the fact that it is discrimination against a protected class and that you are not even being asked to break God's Law.
ABE: IF I am asked to make a cake that honors gay marriage /ABE I am being asked to dishonor God's law. And doing that does in fact make me complicit in the sin.
I never read it in the Bible that thou shalt not make a cake for two men entering a loving and committed relationship together. Sure, God's law tells you not to be gay (not that that matters, since most Christians find other things in the Bible they aren't supposed to do, but do them anyway) but nowhere does it say not to offer your services to them equally.
I guess I'm supposed to agree with your assessment, huh? Because you are so convinced you are right. My opinion doesn't count. What you get out of the Bible and what I get out of it are apparently different things, but I'm going to be forced to accept your version of it, not allowed to have my own.
Faith writes:
And there's the propaganda. I'm sure it convinces you and all those other folks you mention, which merely means you are going to be the persecutors when push comes to shove. Like everyone else on this thread you also prefer terms that misrepresent the case. "Offends me?" No, offends God, is a violation of God's law. Has nothing whatever to do with me personally. If I'm a Christian I refuse to have a part in violating God's law. So "society" will just have to throw me in the dungeon.
Who cares if it offends God?
Obviously, you don't, and once again what you think is what I should think, and not only SHOULD think but MUST think because if I ever act on what I think in a way that offends what YOU think I can be fined and if I can't pay the fine I'll lose my business and go to jail. What a great free country we have.
First off, you cannot choose to make your religion more important than others (or lack thereof) in this secular society.
Obviously not, not in this NEW REVISED version of our society I can't. That's what this whole discussion is about, haven't you noticed? I am not allowed to act on my Biblical beliefs because people of your beliefs say I can't.
Your religion does not get special treatment.
Obviously not. Too bad for me, too bad for the nation, but obviously not. Only this newly invented oppressed class, which amounts to 4% of the population, gets special treatment, over millions who object to the whole idea of gay marriage.
You have the right in your churches to refuse to marry gay people, and while I don't agree with that stance, I will be one of the first to defend it for your group.
Well, you are among the few who grant that right as they are trying to bring down the churches on this point too, so if you really desire to defend us you'd better give up your job and make a career out of it.
However, when it comes to state issued marriage licenses, your religion has nothing to say on the topic. First off, many Christian religions do not even recognize a state performed marriage as valid in God's eyes. It is not a religious ceremony, have you ever been to a non-religious wedding? There is nothing there to offend God because God is not even involved and he/she/it should not be. The individuals are being married by the secular state, not the religious.
Golly gee, what a SURPRISE, why I had no IDEA!
But there is nothing about what they are doing that violates God's law so I have no reason to object.
Your martyr complex is ridiculous and if some agent of the state tried to jail you for refusing service, I would claim they had overstepped authority. However, allowing the individual you discriminated against to recoup some damages from you....nothing wrong with that, it was your hatred and bigotry that caused you to be punished for a decision to knowingly discriminate against someone because of who they are.
Well, can't get blood out of a turnip, so off to the dungeon I go.
Faith writes:
Yeah you've all been pushing this line for the whole thread. You ARE attacking Christian beliefs and that's all this is all about in the end. We oppose gay marriage so we're being set up to act on it and be persecuted for it, having OUR freedoms violated, but that doesn't matter, only gay freedoms matter, not Christians.' Gay marriage is a violation of God's law. Also of common sense, but common sense no longer exists. Homosexuals are just a species of sinner, they are not a special human class, but you have made them into that so now you can persecute those who rae of a different opinion. The devil has done his work SO well, one does really have to admire his effectiveness at bamboozling the human race.
We are not attacking Christian belief,
OH YES YOU ARE. There is no such thing as a belief that is really a belief that doesn't take action in the world.
because we explicitly say..."Believe what you want and think what you want"
Yes, that IS what you say, defining what belief is for us, thanks so much. Again, there is no such thing as a genuine belief that doesn't act in the world.
However, if you want to act on those thoughts, remember that you began a business in the public sector to offer goods and services to individuals in society. These individuals, whether you agree with their views or not, are free to make their own choices, which do not have to coincide with your beliefs. There is no requirement for them bow to the line in the sand Christians are trying to draw.
Of course not, it's only CHRISTIANS who have to toe the line THEY draw in the sand, it is only CHRISTIANS who are not free to make our own choices which supposedly do not have to coincide with your or their beliefs except that according to you they do.
If they are getting married (since it is legal in the state where these cases occurred), then any bakery that offers its services to the public sector must be willing to provide that service for law-abiding citizens.
I guess you can keep saying it and trying to cram it down my throat, but I'll just keep saying sorry I radically disagree and if you legally force it on me I'll take my punishment because I am not ever going to see this your way no matter how you harangue and browbeat me.
Otherwise, get out of the public sector and create some private company where you can discriminate to your heart's content.
Which may be all you are leaving us, yes. Sew a yellow cross to our clothes and confine us to the ghetto where we can't bother all you righteous people. The ovens will be opening soon enough and you'll never have to think about us again.
But....a rose by any other name is still a rose, and discrimination, whether in the name of Christianity or racism, is still discrimination.
So you have said ad nauseam for this entire lecture, and again, I'll take my lumps because your point of view is absolutely odious to me, tyrannical, irrational, ludicrously unjust and odious to the max.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
™ Version 4.2
(1)