Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID

I'm getting tired of being let down by my sources. I've had in mind for a long time that I need to get my own index together of references that I can trust on every subject I talk about. Hope I have the energy to do that.I looked up the memorial and that one isn't there as you said, JUST THAT ONE mind you, but he has a lot of good things to say about religion nevertheless, speaks of "the holy author of our religion" which certainly shows a strong identification with Christianity despite his rejection of its message of salvation. He makes reference to God quite a bit, showing a basically religious turn of mind, so getting worked up about the absence of that one misattributed short quote seems a bit excessive.Remember that Jefferson made his own Bible. He cut out all the supernatural references but clearly he liked what the Bible had to say otherwise, especially Jesus' teachings. So I don't find it unbelievable at all that he would say something like that.In the end you found one line from one of the men quoted that you are making into a huge big deal, nothing from that whole list of other founders and quotes. Your claim that this amounts to nothing but "Christian pseudohistory" seems more wishful than factual.Just for reference here's the memorial list of quotes

You could try looking for the originals before posting them.I mean, you understand that a source like http://www.usachristianministries.com/ obviously has an agenda. It might say things that are true, but you shouldn't trust that kind of site alone. Though it should be mentioned the other quote was actually an amalgamation of two quotes from different writings. He also states:

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Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.

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He corrupted the Bible, by your understanding, did he not? I would have thought normally you would think badly of this. He called what was left diamonds out of a dunghill.

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I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. The result is an octavo of forty-six pages, of pure and unsophisticated doctrines.

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46 pages. He didn't think there were many diamonds. But yes, like most white people of his time, the Bible was clearly an influence on his thinking.

Does it occur to you that maybe there are no sources that can be trusted to back up ideas that are blatantly false?

Funny, that long list of quotes that ARE on the memorial ought to show you that what I said is true.

I recommend to you Liars for Jesus: The Religious Right’s Alternate Version of American History by Chris Rodda. It is the results of her researching the lies and distortions of American history being generated by the Religious Right. She takes particular claims, cites and quotes from various writers such as Barton and Federer, shows how the lie develops as it passes from one writer to the next, and then goes back to the original documents being misquoted and misrepresented to show what they really said. Her website includes images of the documents in question so you can see them for yourself. Since it is a PDF file, we need but to search the "quotes" you posted to see what the true about them is. On page 14 we find the actual text of the resolution:

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Whereupon, Resolved, That the United States in Congress
assembled, highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking
of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion
as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country,
and being satisfied from the above report, of his care and
accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this
edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States,
and hereby authorise him to publish this recommendation in
the manner he shall think proper.

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Absolutely nothing about "the use of schools". Wherever did that part come from? It was taken from a letter written by Aitken. The revisionist misquoting of the resolution is also intended to leave out the purely secular reason for the recommendation, which was to promote the American printing industry:

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The secular benefit of this resolution, omitted by Hutson and others,
was that it acknowledged an instance of the progress of arts in
this country. Publicizing the accuracy of this Bible was a great way
for Congress to promote the American printing industry.
Few American printers at this time were printing books. Most
limited their businesses to broadsides, pamphlets, and newspapers.
The books that were printed in America were not only more expensive
than those imported from England, but had a reputation for being full
of errors. Congress knew that as soon as the war was over and books
could once again be imported, any progress that the book shortage had
caused in the printing industry would end. The war had created an
opportunity for American printers to prove themselves, and Robert
Aitken had done that. Printing an accurate edition of a book as large
as the Bible was a monumental task for any printer, and Congress
wanted it known that an American printer had accomplished it. But,
by omitting the part of the resolution acknowledging this instance of
the progress of arts, it is easily made to appear that Congress passed
this resolution for the sole purpose of promoting religion.
In 1968, the American Bible Society published a reprint

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As it turned out, Aiken couldn't sell his Bibles and return to the government for help:

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Aitken ended up losing over 3,000 on the 10,000 Bibles he printed.
Few stories about the Aitken Bible mention that it sold poorly, and
those that do blame it on the competition of cheaper British Bibles.
The problem with this theory is that Aitken completed his Bible seven
months before the end of hostilities was declared by Congress, and
over a year before the peace treaty with Great Britain was ratified.
According to the treaty, American ports would not be open to British
ships until all British troops were removed, which was clearly going to
take a while, so the possibility of a supply of imported Bibles was still
uncertain even at this point.
In 1777, Rev. Alison had written to Congress that the number of
purchasers is so great, that we doubt not but a large impression
would soon be sold. Obviously, Rev. Alison greatly overestimated the
demand for Bibles because, in 1782, after five more years without a
supply, Robert Aitken couldn’t sell his.
In 1790, Aitken wrote to George Washington, using his losses from
printing his Bibles as one of the reasons that Washington should help
him get the job of Printer and Stationer to Congress. In this letter,
Aitken not only exaggerated the involvement of Congress in his 1782
printing, but hinted that he was still looking for government help to
print Bibles. Aitken claimed in this letter that the scarcity of that
valuable book was such, as to claim the attention of Congress, and
excite their solicitude for a supply and that the Book was undertaken
in a great measure at the instance, and under the Patronage
of Congress. Congress never solicited a supply of Bibles, nor did
Aitken undertake his printing in any way at their instance. The Papers
and Journals of the Continental Congress clearly show this was all initiated
by Aitken himself.

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Rooda spends over 20 pages describing this claim and goes to no less pains with the other claims she covers. From Quotations on the Jefferson Memorial, here is Panel Three and where those quotes were lifted from:

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PANEL THREE

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"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce between master and slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Establish a law for educating the common people. This it is the business of the state and on a general plan."

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ORIGINAL PASSAGES
"But let them [members of the parliament of Great Britain] not think to exclude us from going to other markets, to dispose of those commodities which they cannot use, nor41 to supply those wants which they cannot supply. Still less let it be proposed that our properties within our own territories shall be taxed or regulated by any power on earth but our own. The god who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them." - "A Summary View of the Rights of British America"[4]

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"For in a warm climate, no man will labour for himself who can make another labour for him. This is so true, that of the proprietors of slaves a very small proportion indeed are ever seen to labor. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever . . . ." - Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII[5]

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"The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it. . . ." - Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII[6]

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"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them." - Jefferson's Autobiography[7]

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"Preach, my dear sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people." - Jefferson to George Wythe, August 13, 1786[8]

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"It is an axiom in my mind that our liberty can never be safe but in the hands of the people themselves, and that too of the people with a certain degree of instruction. This it is the business of the state to effect, and on a general plan." - Jefferson to George Washington, January 4, 1786[9]

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My point, for pete's sake, is that EVEN THOUGH these men were not Christians, and in fact could rightly be called antichrists because they rejected the Deity of Christ and His salvation, that NEVERTHELESS they all considered Christian morality to be superior and essential to a successful nation. This much IS shown by Jefferson's preserving all of the Bible that wasn't supernatural. Sheesh.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I don't know Federer but I'm aware of Barton's llies and long since rejected anything he says.

You said, "... on every subject I talk about.' Message 571Congratulations one being right ONCE in 14000 posts.

You posted false quotes that originated with Barton. You should check the sources of your quotes.

What Barton is wrong about is his insistence that the founders were Christians which they weren't, and he quoted John Adams so obviously out of context in one case that he isn't someone to trust. But these quotes aren't false.

faith mind telling me witch evolutionary branches of christianity are still Christian or became or whatever. Just so i know when to use the word Christian right with you.Here Be the tghe evolutionary tree of life of the Christian religion Now i do know there are thousands of denominations but im hoping one does not need be so detailed in the search for the true Christian religion. But could you name the specific denomination that is the most Christian.

See post #568. What's more, this is a fake quote on a subject that Barton habitually lies about.

It not obvious what you mean by "these", the quotes you posted or some Barton quotes, but either way they are all false or so obviously out of context that they cannot reflect the beliefs of the author.

I can understand that feeling, nothing like being betrayed by other people's falsehoods. Curiously I saw them as a strong identification with the natural deist god, as discussed in the Declaration of Independence and in other writings of his. Personally I see it as leaving the door open for a number of interpretations, Indeed, he considered Jesus as a man, with no supernatural aspect, and his teachings then are similar to those of Buddha and others. As I said, I only looked up one quote and found it to be false, and that this throws suspicion on all the other -- I don't need to go over all the others to know that the source is untrustworthy.The fact that they are promoted as "for use in schools" is to me indicative of the agenda to insert Christianity into schools rather than leave it where it belongs -- at home and at church.We can also discuss Tom Paine, who was likely highly critical to the revolution actually occurring due to the popularity of his pamphlets and the ideas\ideals contained therein:Thomas Paine - Wikipedia

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... Paine emigrated to the British American colonies in 1774 with the help of Benjamin Franklin, arriving just in time to participate in the American Revolution. His principal contributions were the powerful, widely read pamphlet Common Sense (1776) that advocated colonial America's independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain, and The American Crisis (1776—83), a prorevolutionary pamphlet series. Common Sense was so influential that John Adams said, "Without the pen of the author of Common Sense, the sword of Washington would have been raised in vain."[4]

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He went on to fight in the French Revolution, where he was nearly executed, but returned at age 65.

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In 1802, he returned to America where he died on June 8, 1809. Only six people attended his funeral as he had been ostracized for his ridicule of Christianity.[5]

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Rather than just ridicule Christianity, however he was an equal opportunity ridiculer of all organized religions.

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About his own religious beliefs, Paine wrote in The Age of Reason:

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I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

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I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

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All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

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It was the institutions of religion more than the religious beliefs, and in this his views were echoed by Thomas Jefferson and others.Edited by RAZD, : ...

Did you object to anything I actually said?