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Author Topic:   Depositional Models of Sea Transgressions/Regressions - Walther's Law
edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 407 of 533 (727674)
05-19-2014 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Percy
05-19-2014 3:56 PM


Re: Walther's Law Video
Would appreciate someone explaining the video from 20:00 on, in particular how the counts in the matrix at 26:34 are obtained, and then how to interpret the diagram at 29:37.
Heh, brings back bad memories. It's evidence that sedimentologists don't have enough to keep them occupied. I think it's just trying to tell which transitions are most significant in a given series of sea level fluctuations. Remember how he said that Walther's Law will break down when there are unconformities and when sea level is rapidly fluctuating back and forth? Any statisticians around here?

This message is a reply to:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 414 of 533 (727708)
05-20-2014 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Faith
05-20-2014 9:34 AM


Re: salt basin
No, that is not the case. The Grand Canyon area has the virtue of being clear enough to demonstrate that nothing tectonic happened between the Cambrian and the Tertiary, which is excellent evidence against the Old Earth and for the Flood.
Please explain. I'm not getting how continuous sedimentation in one small part of the earth means that there was a global flood. I'm also not seeing how a lack of major tectonism for a period of time in one small area supports the idea that the earth is young.
All a more complex location would do is muddy up the evidence.
It would also provide more data, maybe even about times where the GC area was quiet. More complex means more data, Faith.
People have presented me with photos supposedly proving that tectonic disturbance did occur during the laying down.
Well, I'd say that it's pretty clear that while one part of the continent may be tectonically quiescent, other areas may be active.
The area in the photo may be quite messy, jumbled, collapsed and so on, which proves nothing about their claims and suggests to me exactly what I've been claiming.
I am sorry that reality is too messy for you. Nature is often like that.
It all got shook up afterward, but if Geology doesn't agree, too bad for me.
That could mean something, ya think?
Geology is going to have a whole bunch of stuff supposedly proving events in certain time periods from such messy situations, like that cross section edge just posted, but they don't prove that, the idea merely fits with the Old Earth assumptions.
We are glad to entertain alternative solutions, however, what you have presented to us fails to explain the Paradox Basin.
Edge may know a lot but he's got a lousy attitude and a lousy communication style.
I don't understand half of what he says, and that's from his communication problem not my level of knowledge.
Heh, heh... Did you listen to that lecture linked on the previous page? Heck, I didn't understand half of it, but I'm not complaining, nor am I insulting him for doing godless geology.
I know the Flood occurred, ...
I'm sure you do.
... and I'm 90% sure the Grand Canyon shows how.
I'm sure you are.
But you cannot support your viewpoint and all of science is against you.
The normal conclusion would be that you are wrong.
Nothing more to say on this particular subject.
I'm not so sure about that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Faith, posted 05-20-2014 9:34 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 415 of 533 (727710)
05-20-2014 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Faith
05-20-2014 9:54 AM


Re: pick a site
My job is to construct some idea of how the Flood happened ...
Well, then, we are actually helping you.
... although I'm not a geologist and have to rely on the internet for information.
Why then is it your job? Why not leave it to the creation scientists who have abandoned you? And where do you get your information?
For my purposes the clearest situations are best.
Your clearest situation seems to involve ignoring a whole lot of data. That would be about as clear as you can get, I suppose.
I'm not going to give up no matter what nonsense I get thrown at me.
I'm sure you will not.
I know the Flood happened and the GC shows the ridiculousness of Old Earth explanations.
Ages ago, we knew that gods required human sacrifice...
(snip)

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 Message 412 by Faith, posted 05-20-2014 9:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 416 of 533 (727712)
05-20-2014 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by Faith
05-20-2014 9:58 AM


Re: the Great Unconformity scenario
I don't use the term "slip fault"
But that is what you are describing. You must have detachment along the Great Unconformity in order to get different degrees of deformation.
Your post is useless to me, just an aping of edge.
If providing an even-handed analysis is aping me, then I'm pleased.
Not reading it. Go away.
This appears to demonstrate your attitude toward evidence. Thank you for clearing that up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Faith, posted 05-20-2014 9:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 425 of 533 (727751)
05-20-2014 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by herebedragons
05-20-2014 10:41 AM


Re: salt basin
You know, I don't understand half of what he says either. But why is it his fault that I don't know the terms and processes he is talking about? If I really want to understand, I either look it up or ask "What do you mean by ***? Could you explain *** a little more? I don't understand."
I have no problems with answering questions. I just cannot guarantee that I know all the answers.
Interpretation: Rifting, not compression is what caused faulting in the Supergroup.
Yes. The way the GC Sg resides in down-faulted blocks suggests extension. These are called 'normal faults'.
Notice that the blocks are what I call faulted tilt-blocks. When the Unkar was deposited, those beds were horizontal or nearly so. My point is that the entire block has been tilted, including the underlying schist. When we take out this deformation, we would still see deformation of an even earlier age in the Vishnu.
This is one of Faith's problems. There are more events than she imagines and cramming them into 6ky is impossible.
And I haven't even mentioned the granitic intrusive event yet....

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edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 426 of 533 (727752)
05-20-2014 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Faith
05-20-2014 10:45 AM


Re: salt basin
There was no tectonic activity in other locations during the laying down of the strata. No you have not shown that
And you can support this statement? How do you explain the deep subsidence of the Paraox Basin at the same time as the Supai Group was being deposited in the GC area.
And that's just right next door to the Colorado Plateau. Would you like to visit the Ordovician Period on the east coast of the US, for instance?

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 Message 419 by Faith, posted 05-20-2014 10:45 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 427 of 533 (727753)
05-20-2014 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by Faith
05-20-2014 10:54 AM


Re: salt basin
Go celebrate with edge. You've won the debate.
There are no winners here. Ignorance is invincible.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Faith, posted 05-20-2014 10:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Faith, posted 05-20-2014 2:31 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 434 of 533 (728043)
05-22-2014 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by Admin
05-22-2014 11:51 AM


Re: Summation Time?
This actually was a pretty good thread. It caused me to look up and check a lot of things that I had forgotten about, and to look at some fresh ideas from recent history. Personally, I think the problem right now is that there is a bit of grievance fatigue out there. Maybe a technical discussion could continue.
Edited by edge, : fix punctuation

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Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by NoNukes, posted 05-22-2014 8:19 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 436 of 533 (728049)
05-22-2014 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by NoNukes
05-22-2014 8:19 PM


Re: Summation Time?
1. What feature of the grand canyon would you say is most problematic for people who maintain that the GC was created in a few months by flood waters.
That's tough to say, there are so many features that require some factor unaccounted for by a young earth/global flood scenario. My best are:
1) The occurrence of numerous geological events from deposition of the Vishnu to down-cutting of the modern Grand Canyon. It's just not feasible to have so many events occurring in 6ky. This includes such things as numerous unconformities, limestone formations and entrenched meanders.
2) The occurrence of tetrapod tracks in the Coconino Sandstone. To have these you either need to have a hiatus in current flow over some kind of amphibious tetrapod track in a sand deposit, or a hiatus in deposition of an eolian sand. Which is more believable?
3) The last is a lack of evidence for any other features suggestive of a single transgression/regression cycle and lack of evidence for any flood exceeding the banks of the canyon (scablands, etc.). There just isn't enough water...
2. What features of the grand canyon exist for which the scientific explanations are very speculative and possibly bordering on just plain guessing? Surely there are some perplexing features.
The only things that puzzle me are couple.
1) The lack of definitive origin for limestones in the Bass Formation of the lower Unkar Group. Most limestones are certainly organic, but it would be nice to have some fossils that look like real stromatolites. This is, however, a common problem for Precambrian limestone as far as I know, so it doesn't bother me very much. There may be some information out there that I'm not aware of, also.
2) The fact that there are so many diastems and horizontal unconformities bothers me a little; but again, they do occur in other known settings, so I"m not too worried. This was just a very stable block for some reason, over a very long period of time, and that violates no principle of geology.
Otherwise, things are pretty much explained as far as I'm concerned. Maybe someone has a specific issue, but I can pretty much guarantee you that you don't have to worry about anything in the GC overturning old earth and mainstream geology. That is one of the most extensively studied regions in the world and, if there was anything suspicious, it would be pretty well exposed as a failure of geology.

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edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 440 of 533 (728085)
05-23-2014 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by Faith
05-23-2014 12:51 PM


Re: my summation
No idea why the Vishnu is a problem.
It is a huge problem because it represents a time of volcanism and sedimentation that was metamorphosed and deformed prior to intrusion by the Zoroaster Granite. That granite is dated at about 1.7 ga, and had to cool and be partially eroded along with the Vishnu before the Unkar Group could even be deposited. When you consider all of the post Vishnu events, it is impossible to even imagine them all being fit into a 6ky timeframe.
The unconformities are of course "missing" depositions, for which there is no evidence except belief based on the theory that they're supposed to be there. So that is hardly a problem for the Flood as we don't expect them to be there anyway.
They represent time. Time for which there is no record and time which only adds to the time represented by deposition and deformation.
As for the cutting of the canyon, it fits fine with the cutting of all the other phenomena at the same time in the Grand Staircase area after all the strata were laid down.
The problem is that there is evidence for at least two periods of stream erosion. Again, you don't have time for that.
Entrenched meanders would have occurred after the Flood waters had died down to river size, but especially in the eastern parts where the land was more flat, scoured down to a flat layer.
But the implication is two periods of different erosional style.
Limestone would have been laid down as per Walther's Law. It's laid down in rising sea water so certainly should have been laid down in the rising Flood water.
I have found no evidence of limestone being deposited by a flood and that doesn't even begin to address the time it would take. Walther's Law, or not, there simply isn't time or the depositional environment.
The idea that any of this is a problem for the Flood makes no sense.
This is what you have said repeatedly, but you have not provided any evidence to support your statement.
Isn't this called the Argument from Incredulity? Of course what one believes is really scientific, isn't it? So if that's the scientific criterion here I find it much easier to believe that there were numerable breaks in the rising of the Flood waters, waves coming in and going out the way waves do, only bigger waves across more land area.
I'm sure you find it much easier to believe, but you have not gone any further than just making this assertion. Your waves are exactly what would destroy the footprints.
Banks of the canyon? I figure the water was standing a mile above the canyon before it was cut, right over the uppermost strata that had been laid down to that height, and that while it was probably the tectonic shaking and faulting in that uppermost strata that opened the crack that eventually became the GC, it was the water rushing into that crack as well as all over the GS area at the same time that cut the GC along with all the GS cliffs and canyons, washing away humongous amounts of broken up strata. The "lack of evidence" is due to looking in the wrong place with the wrong theory.
I'm still looking for your evidence. Telling us what you 'figure', is not evidence.
Don't see why this is a problem.
I'm not saying it's a problem in the sense of refuting anything, just that I'd like to see some nice definitive evidence.
Nor should the Flood violate any principles of Geology really. The fact that there are so many diastems and unconformities IS a problem for the OE theory, not at all a problem for the Flood, in fact it's evidence for the Floodl
Did I say that a flood would violate any principles? The evidence, however refutes a flood.
Not that Geology can't rationalize away anything that supports the Flood of course.
I thought you wanted a technical discussion...
If they knew where to look and what sort of evidence matters they might see something suspicious, but we don't have to worry because they aren't going to.
So, anyway. Enjoy your Mutual Admiration Society.
Thank you for proving my suspicion that you are not being serious about having a straightforward technical discussion.
ABE: Oops, forgot I wanted to add this link to a site about students investigating Walther's Law on a marshy beach. Wanted to find something that shows it as a normally occurring way sediments are layered, in this case probably merely by rising tides. Still seems to me that the rising water of the Flood had to have acted in exactly the same way, making all those huge extensive layers of sediments everywhere they are found.
Page not found | Rodriguez Lab
It would have. That's the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Faith, posted 05-23-2014 12:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by Faith, posted 05-23-2014 3:08 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 442 of 533 (728105)
05-23-2014 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Faith
05-23-2014 3:08 PM


Re: my summation
If that link I posted shows that layers can be laid down in a very short period of time just from normal tides, there is no problem with the time element of the Flood.
I don't see that it does. Please explain your reasoning.
Why can something that appears to happen over a short period of time not happen over a long period of time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by Faith, posted 05-23-2014 3:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 444 of 533 (728110)
05-23-2014 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Faith
05-23-2014 3:08 PM


Re: my summation
No need to answer again. Please.
Why not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by Faith, posted 05-23-2014 3:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 447 of 533 (728549)
05-30-2014 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 428 by Faith
05-20-2014 2:31 PM


Re: salt basin
I can pull rank too: Some day God will show you that the Flood did happen, ...
Why not now? Why not here? This would be a great opportunity to set the record straight, so why not do that?
I can only suggest that both God, and the professional creationists, have abandoned you in your efforts to strike down the anti-floodists and start a whole new branch of geology.
So, it appears that, really, you have not the authority or the backing to 'pull rank' on anyone.
So I'll leave you to answer to Him for now. You WILL have to answer to Him, you really should keep that in mind for lots of reasons.
I already have answered.
But I have a few questions of my own, as well.
At this point, I think the earlier question regarding summation phase is appropriate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Faith, posted 05-20-2014 2:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
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