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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Where should there be "The right to refuse service"? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin." In addition to the protections against discrimination provided under federal law, many states have passed their own Civil Rights Acts that provide broader protections than the Federal Civil Rights Act. For example, California's Unruh Civil Rights Act makes it illegal to discriminate against individuals based on unconventional dress or sexual preference. In the 1960s, the Unruh Civil Rights Act was interpreted to provide broad protection from arbitrary discrimination by business owners. Cases decided during that era held that business owners could not discriminate, for example, against hippies, police officers, homosexuals, or Republicans, solely because of who they were. In cases in which the patron is not a member of a federally protected class, the question generally turns on whether the business's refusal of service was arbitrary, or whether the business had a specific interest in refusing service. For example, in a recent case, a California court decided that a motorcycle club had no discrimination claim against a sports bar that had denied members admission to the bar because they refused to remove their "colors," or patches, which signified club membership. The court held that the refusal of service was not based on the club members' unconventional dress, but was to protect a legitimate business interest in preventing fights between rival club members. SOURCE There's more.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
OK I'll bite.
I more or less agree with the other reasons for and against on this thread, but since the question is particularly important to Christians who oppose gay marriage I might word it something like this: Service cannot be refused for all the reasons given, except in the case of a conscientious objection to some request by a customer, that can be proved to be objectionable based on the faith of the business owner. Not a refusal of general service to any persons, but a refusal of a specific service of a particular request such as a wedding cake for a gay wedding or photos for a gay wedding or flowers for a gay wedding, all of which are recent legal issues involving Christia business owners in four different states. The Bible's position on [abe: struck out homosexuality as sin because the passages on marriage should be sufficient to make the case. But if anyone thinks we'd be arguing to refuse service to homosexuals as such, I'd remind you that we're all sinners and if we refused service to sinners we'd have no business at all] Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Why just faith? Is faith more important than secular principles? If I don't want to serve Jews because I think they are part of a conspiracy to bankrupt America/wherever then why is that belief, should it be sincerely held, not to be permitted but 'I believe some anonymous and long dead jews were told this by the creator of the universe' is? I was careful to word my post in terms of conscientiously refusing a particular service, clearly rejecting the idea of refusing general service to persons, so your response here misses the point completely. If there is a secular case for the refusal of a particular service on conscientious grounds, then fine, include it. But since Moose would prefer to keep this discussion off this particular thread, maybe we should move it to one of the older threads on the subject. Or at least keep it as minimal as possible here. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
And I too was careful to include the phrase 'even if its only in certain contexts'. For instance refusing to sell a cake for a gay wedding is refusing a certain class of people, only in certain contexts. If you'd like instead of Jews being responsible for bankrupting us, you can replace it with 'people wearing yarmulkes'. This is the only point in your post I want to answer because again it ignores the one and only point I was making, which is the point that it is a particular service by the business that is the only thing in question, not the person of any customer, since apart from a particular service under particular circumstances all services are available to all customers, whoever they are and however they dress and whatever they have to do or not do with banking or anything else, but you have insisted on making it a matter of persons rather than a particular service. Since you refuse to address the very point I was making I consider this part of the discussion over.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The business does not "voluntarily provide" wedding cakes for gay weddings or flowers for gay weddings or photos for gay weddings. That is a service that a Christian business does not provide because it is conscientiously opposed by the Christian business owner.
I am trying to define the actual situation in such a way as to provide for the Christian point of view in a hostile pagan society. But since you all insist on the rules of the hostile pagan society trumping anything Christians try to do, even to the point of telling us, as Mod did, that we are not even allowed to run a business at all ever, then you need to recognize that you are defending a tyrannical fascist form of government that deprives Christians of our rights while selectively defending the rights of a tiny minority against us. Apparently that is the kind of society many of you here want to have. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No. We're defending a form of government which prevents your minority from tyranizing other minorities. But you are deluding yourselves because all you will accomplish is tyrannizing Christians. That's OK of course, it's always good to separate the chaff from the wheat and in this case the wheat will suffer the punishment of this developing fascist pagan society that you all favor, which is the way it ought to be. That's why Meriam Ibraham is in prison in a Muslim country, suffering for her faith. Americans/Canadians/British/Europeans will be joining her if you have your way. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That's fine, you're just going to need a lot more prison space than is currently available. Oh maybe the FEMA camps will suffice.
Or it might be a lot more efficient to get us to dig a big ditch and then shoot us so we fall into it. Yes I think that will work nicely. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The fact is that "intolerance" is what you all are doing. But again, that's OK, you can punish us for running afoul of your twisted rules.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What you are doing is advocating a law that discriminates against Bible believers, but that doesn't bother you.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Remember, there have recently been FOUR cases of Christian businesses in four different states being sued for refusing to cater to gay weddings. One was fined by the state.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Bible is the standard. There is no Biblical basis for discriminating against persons in business but there is a Biblical basis for refusing to do anything to validate a violation of God's marriage ordinance.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So what that different people have different standards? I'm talking about why Christians will refuse to do this.
Here's your biblical standard: 1. Homosexuality is by secular standards an aberration, and by Biblical standards a sin, it is not a normal class of human beings. 2. Marriage is a "creation ordinance", established at the Creation, between a man and a woman:
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Jesus quotes Genesis in Matthew 19 and Mark 10: For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; But it isn't for you to decide how we read the Bible or what our conscience tells us we must do to please God. Your opinion is disgustingly intolerant and discriminatory. ABE: And by the way there is now a fifth case of a Christian refusing a service for a gay wedding, this time in California, a woman named Zimmerman with an online business. She hasn't been sued. But the point is that this is not some negligible issue, it's going to continue to grow. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
A good Christian life means obeying God over men.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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I think Faith may have made o good point somewhere upthread when she suggested that it was a matter of denying a particular service rather than a particular group or individual. That's been my position all along, never deviated from it for a moment, though for some reason it's been just about impossible to get it across.
Should a person have the right to deny a specific service that is offensive as long as it doesn't extend into areas of general services that would exclude individuals. That's what I've been proposing.
For example, if a member of the KKK came in and wanted you to bake a cake for their rally that said "We hate *****", you should be free to respond, "I don't provide that service (making cakes that promote hatred and bigotry). However, I do bake cakes, so I can bake a cake with no inscription on it and you can write whatever you want on it." Could this same response be made to a same sex couple who want a wedding cake? "I don't provide that service (same sex wedding cakes) but I do bake wedding cakes. I can make you a wedding cake and sell you two sets of bride/groom cake toppers and you can put them on yourself." This wouldn't work for me. As long as I know it's for a gay wedding I couldn't make a wedding cake at all. If they want to buy a simple cake out of the display case that's already there they are welcome to that, but a wedding cake is a very special creation and I'd have to refuse.
How would those two situations be different? Would that be enough to ease the conscious of the person who doesn't support same-sex marriage? Nope, see above. I'll sell them cookies, eclairs, brownies, cakes from the display case, but not a wedding cake. And the KKK people can do their own inscription.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Mod's point never made any sense to me and it still doesn't, and I've answered it already. Again, I'm never talking about denying service to any persons at all, wearing yarmulkes or not, only specifically denying a specific service. And if a person came in wearing a yarmulke and wanted to order a wedding cake for the gay wedding of a couple of friends of his I'd have to turn him down too. I might try to interest him in a cupcake though.
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