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Author Topic:   If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature....
faceman
Member (Idle past 3406 days)
Posts: 149
From: MN, USA
Joined: 04-25-2014


Message 226 of 708 (729273)
06-07-2014 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by NoNukes
06-07-2014 1:08 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
You seem to be a pretty smart guy.
Well that's what I tell my wife anyways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2014 1:08 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
faceman
Member (Idle past 3406 days)
Posts: 149
From: MN, USA
Joined: 04-25-2014


Message 227 of 708 (729274)
06-07-2014 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by ringo
06-07-2014 1:11 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
Do you understand the difference between absolute and objective?
Probably not according to you, so please tell me what you think the difference is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 1:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 2:24 PM faceman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 228 of 708 (729278)
06-07-2014 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by faceman
06-07-2014 2:05 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
faceman writes:
ringo writes:
Do you understand the difference between absolute and objective?
Probably not according to you, so please tell me what you think the difference is.
Subjective is one person's opinion, like the best flavour of ice cream.
Objective is something that people can agree on, like the length of a two-by-four. They've set aside their personal opinions. There is an inherent uncertainty in any objective observation because it's a combination of subjective observations. The objective length of the two-by-four is an average accompanied by an estimate of how uncertain it is.
Absolute is what "is". But how can we know what "is" except by observation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by faceman, posted 06-07-2014 2:05 PM faceman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by faceman, posted 06-07-2014 2:43 PM ringo has replied

  
faceman
Member (Idle past 3406 days)
Posts: 149
From: MN, USA
Joined: 04-25-2014


Message 229 of 708 (729280)
06-07-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by ringo
06-07-2014 2:24 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
If truth is only objective, then we're forced to doubt the existence of the laws of logic and physics, prior to our objective perceptions of them, since we weren't always around to observe them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 2:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 2:48 PM faceman has replied
 Message 242 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-07-2014 8:20 PM faceman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 230 of 708 (729282)
06-07-2014 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by faceman
06-07-2014 2:43 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
faceman writes:
If truth is only objective, then we're forced to doubt the existence of the laws of logic and physics, prior to our objective perceptions of them, since we weren't always around to observe them.
Yup. Now you're getting it. We do doubt the laws of physics. That's why our understanding of them keeps changing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by faceman, posted 06-07-2014 2:43 PM faceman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by faceman, posted 06-07-2014 3:00 PM ringo has replied

  
faceman
Member (Idle past 3406 days)
Posts: 149
From: MN, USA
Joined: 04-25-2014


Message 231 of 708 (729284)
06-07-2014 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by ringo
06-07-2014 2:48 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
Without absolute truths, there can be no actual reality. Scientific predictions would be impossible, past observations would be extremely suspect (if not impossible as well) and ultimately we would have nothing but absolute chaos (pun intended). You wouldn't even be able to trust your own analysis of this very subject. We would know nothing at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 2:48 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 3:23 PM faceman has replied
 Message 256 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-10-2014 11:03 AM faceman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 232 of 708 (729285)
06-07-2014 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by faceman
06-07-2014 3:00 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
faceman writes:
Without absolute truths, there can be no actual reality.
If by "actual" reality you mean absolute reality, then you're just being circular again.
faceman writes:
Scientific predictions would be impossible...
Objective predictions are possible. Based on past observtions, I can predict that the sun will rise in the east.
faceman writes:
... past observations would be extremely suspect...
Yes, and they are suspect, as they should be. (Note that the sun doesn't actually "rise" in the east, so the observations are not "actually" true.)
faceman writes:
... ultimately we would have nothing but absolute chaos (pun intended).
I appreciate the pun but what would "absolute" chaos even be? Infinite entropy?
faceman writes:
You wouldn't even be able to trust your own analysis of this very subject.
Yes, we shouldn't trust our subjective analysis.
faceman writes:
We would know nothing at all.
We would know nothing absolutely but we could still know things objectively. Even if we don't know absolutely that the sun will "rise" tomorrow, we can still plan our day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by faceman, posted 06-07-2014 3:00 PM faceman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by faceman, posted 06-09-2014 9:57 PM ringo has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 233 of 708 (729286)
06-07-2014 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
06-07-2014 12:51 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
Reality exists objectively
I understand your distinction and I agree that there is such a thing and that it is not the same thing as absolute reality. Absolute reality is the thing that we are all wrong about. It must exist if we can be wrong about it. I mean what would you use to prove that we are wrong if not reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 12:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 4:54 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 234 of 708 (729287)
06-07-2014 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by NoNukes
06-07-2014 12:59 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
Is it the case that the only truths you can demonstrate are definitions? If so then that is a pretty significant limitation.
Perhaps it is a good restriction.
The truths that we recognize are the product of a long distillation process. By the time you are left with a pure product you have something that is equivalent to the definition. So, while 2 means 2 because we say so this does not make it circular. The symbol is not the thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2014 12:59 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 235 of 708 (729288)
06-07-2014 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Dogmafood
06-07-2014 4:34 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
ProtoTypical writes:
It must exist if we can be wrong about it. I mean what would you use to prove that we are wrong if not reality.
It isn't a matter of "proving" anything. We don't know if Bigfoot exists so how can we be either "right" or "wrong" about it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Dogmafood, posted 06-07-2014 4:34 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Dogmafood, posted 06-07-2014 5:04 PM ringo has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 236 of 708 (729289)
06-07-2014 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
06-07-2014 4:54 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
If we can be either right of wrong then there must be something that we can be right or wrong about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 4:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 5:15 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 237 of 708 (729290)
06-07-2014 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Dogmafood
06-07-2014 5:04 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
ProtoTypical writes:
If we can be either right of wrong then there must be something that we can be right or wrong about.
So how do you know if we can be right or wrong about "something"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Dogmafood, posted 06-07-2014 5:04 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Dogmafood, posted 06-07-2014 5:57 PM ringo has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 238 of 708 (729291)
06-07-2014 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by ringo
06-07-2014 5:15 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
So how do you know if we can be right or wrong about "something"?
Logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 5:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 6:04 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 239 of 708 (729292)
06-07-2014 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Dogmafood
06-07-2014 5:57 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
ProtoTypical writes:
ringo writes:
So how do you know if we can be right or wrong about "something"?
Logic.
Don't confuse logic with magic. Logic only works with premises that are already assumed to be true.
All logic can do is connect A to B to C all the way down to Z. It can tell you, "If A then B," but it can't tell you whether A was true in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Dogmafood, posted 06-07-2014 5:57 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Dogmafood, posted 06-07-2014 7:36 PM ringo has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 240 of 708 (729293)
06-07-2014 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by ringo
06-07-2014 6:04 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
All logic can do is connect A to B to C all the way down to Z. It can tell you, "If A then B," but it can't tell you whether A was true in the first place.
What is the first predicate?
If you are still right by the time you get to Zed then it is likely that your A was correct. If logic can tell you anything then there is your start.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 06-07-2014 6:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-07-2014 8:18 PM Dogmafood has not replied
 Message 243 by dwise1, posted 06-07-2014 9:17 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 06-08-2014 2:15 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
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