Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9071 total)
66 online now:
jar, kjsimons, PaulK, Percy (Admin) (4 members, 62 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Upcoming Birthdays: Percy
Post Volume: Total: 893,080 Year: 4,192/6,534 Month: 406/900 Week: 112/150 Day: 5/38 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Do oceans of water in mantle rock prove the flood?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1335 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 5 of 108 (729684)
06-16-2014 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Porosity
06-16-2014 3:59 PM


No
No, water in the mantle does not prove the flood.

What is required to prove the flood is evidence of a massive flood during historic times, i.e., in the past 10,000 years or so. That is lacking.

What we have instead is evidence of continuity during that time period:
--Continuity of human cultures in all parts of the world
--Continuity of human DNA in all parts of the world, with no break followed by replacement with one narrow DNA strain from the Middle East
--Continuity of stratigraphy, with no evidence of massive flood or erosional deposits
--Continuity of fauna and flora, with no evidence of massive bottlenecks within the last 10,000 or so years.

Just one little piece of evidence from my field (archaeology): A skeleton was found in southern Alaska which dated to 10,300 years. It had a rare mtDNA haplotype, but that same haplotype was found in about 46 living individuals stretching down the coasts of North and South America. This shows that there has been no flood since 10,300 years ago which wiped out all worldwide populations.

But wait, there's more! In the past few months information from a Clovis age skeleton has been released--it dated about 12,600 years old, and had the same rare mtDNA haplotype! Again, no evidence of the massive die-off which must have accompanied the purported flood, but rather a continuity throughout the historic period.

(We'll leave for another time the DNA being sequenced from Neanderthal fossils in Europe and Asia. It shows continuity back some 50,000 years.)

Because of this, and much more evidence of a similar general nature, creationists have had to push the date of their purported flood back to the K-T boundary about 65 million years ago, or even more extreme, to the P-T boundary, some 262 million years ago. This ignores the fact that modern humans are only some 200 thousand years old. But hey! When you're searching around for evidence of a global flood, what are a few mangled facts here and there?

So, the answer is no. To have evidence for a global flood during historic times you must go far beyond just a source of water. You need to have real-world evidence for a global flood! And that is the one thing that they don't have.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Porosity, posted 06-16-2014 3:59 PM Porosity has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1335 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 13 of 108 (729694)
06-17-2014 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Porosity
06-17-2014 12:18 AM


I have never seen any creo's pushing the flood back millions of years, but I don't doubt your word.
time.

We have had posters on these very forums advocating both the K-T and the P-T boundaries as the location of the global flood.

I know for sure in the forums I normally haunt they now have their gods existing outside our universe in some imaginary infinite

That would not be a problem.

What we most often see instead is attempts to shoehorn religious beliefs into scientific terms, while ignoring both the methods and findings of science. This, of course, doesn't work in the real world.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Porosity, posted 06-17-2014 12:18 AM Porosity has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 06-17-2014 2:00 PM Coyote has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1335 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 33 of 108 (729731)
06-18-2014 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
06-18-2014 12:31 AM


For the Flood we don't need the water to have started out in this form, the idea is that it explains where the water went, not where it came from.

While you are concentrating on where the water came from and where it went, perhaps you could also lend some thought to the problem of why there is no evidence for a flood of the size you want during historic times?

The problems you face are simply insurmountable, and you have to ignore massive amounts of evidence and manipulate the rest in order to try to shoehorn your flood into some semblance of reality.

So far you have failed, but that's not unusual--creationists have failed for over 200 years to document the global flood.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : BIG off-topic banner.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 06-18-2014 12:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 06-18-2014 1:05 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1335 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 37 of 108 (729736)
06-18-2014 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
06-18-2014 1:05 AM


The whole of the Geologic Column is certainly evidence of a Flood of such proportions -- we're talking miles deep and covering huge areas of whole continents -- as well as the bazillions of fossilized creatures found therein.

The problem with this argument is that these "bazillions of fossilized creatures" are spread out over some billions of years, not concentrated in the narrow time span of one year.

You can believe whatever you want, but don't try to claim you have facts and evidence on your side. You don't.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 06-18-2014 1:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 06-18-2014 1:33 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1335 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 51 of 108 (729753)
06-18-2014 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
06-18-2014 1:33 AM


They all look like they were laid down at the same time.

To you perhaps.

To those who are not blinded by old tribal myths, the geological strata and the fossils they contain are easily read as the record of billions of years.

Evidence of this has been presented to you in many different threads here.

But then, you have stated on more than one occasion that evidence doesn't matter if it goes against your belief.

That's sad. They say, "A mind is a terrible thing to waste." You could be the poster child for that saying, and the saddest thing is that you've done it to yourself.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 06-18-2014 1:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 06-18-2014 4:33 PM Coyote has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1335 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 66 of 108 (729770)
06-18-2014 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
06-18-2014 8:49 PM


The scripture implies that there were no polar ice caps before the Flood, they formed afterward.

So?

Its wrong about a lot of other things too. What's one more...

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 06-18-2014 8:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 06-18-2014 9:03 PM Coyote has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022