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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 479 (477648)
08-05-2008 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Legend
06-21-2008 12:20 PM


Advocate of personal responsibility
Hi Legend.
I have noticed that Christian arguments fall into one of perhaps three (maybe more) camps.
1) Saved by Grace....nothing we ever could do would be enough, hence it is what He did for us once and for all.
2) All are saved thanks to God...but then were we ever "lost"to begin with? Our behavior is what ultimately matters and it is our responsibility to do our best. God gave us a brain. (and a conscience)
3) Religion is mans attempt to find God. Its all a story anyway. Just live life!

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 Message 160 by Legend, posted 06-21-2008 12:20 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 165 of 479 (477746)
08-07-2008 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Legend
08-06-2008 6:22 PM


Re: Advocate of personal responsibility
Legend writes:
It's either grace or works. Paul advocated grace through faith, Jesus advocated works.
I guess it all depends on several things, really. For one thing, how seriously should we take Paul/Saul? The churches who maintain that the Bible is inerrant and is the exclusive Word Of God (or WOG for short)
would obviously place the words of Paul almost on the same level as the Gospels. To them, the Bible was written by humans yet was authored through the humans by the Holy Spirit.
On the opposite extreme, many (such as Brian, our resident atheist Theologian) believe that the Bible is fallible at best, written through the eyes of Bronze Age goat herders who had nary a clue about the reality of our current day...and that Holy Spirit authorship is an unproven and thus tenuous position to take.
On what does one base their belief? Many would accuse a majority of Christians to quotemine scriptures, for example. Well so what if we do? The argument is not one of science and rationality exclusively, after all. It does have an element of faith and belief involved in it.
And so allow me to quote a few famous scriptures that many churches and Pastors use to support the faith that they advocate.
1) Phil 2:12-13-- Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.......Now, does God interact and commune with humans or not? This is a question of belief. It can never be proved one way or the other.
2) Phil 1:3-6-- I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. ....in other words, some of us ask ourselves if Gods Grace...indeed His Holy Spirit works through us at times or whether this is a Sky Daddy myth perpetuated by organized religion.
I myself personally believe that God does interact and commune through humans...many of whom are not religious. Again, this is a faith/belief issue and cannot be provable one way or another.
I am not entirely settled on the issue, either. For one thing, IF Christians who did have the Holy Spirit were thus ambassadors of WOG, why would they so often be caught acting so foolishly and be so resistant to scientific logic and secular rationality? Would the Spirit of God let them down that much?

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 Message 164 by Legend, posted 08-06-2008 6:22 PM Legend has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 399 of 479 (729560)
06-13-2014 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by jaywill
08-22-2008 10:51 PM


Purpose
jaywill writes:
The destiny of the saved man is not really heaven. It is more a Person rather than a place. You should think of the destiny of salvation is to transform man into being Christ like - a human filled within with the living God and mingled with God.
This makes sense. God wants humans to allow Him to perfect them rather than they attempting to perfect themselves without Him. The reason is not so much to get to the right place so much as to allow our inner characters to be transformed for further purpose.
Religion can be a joke, but a personal inner relationship with the God who created all things seen and unseen is a mature and fruitful relationship.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 401 of 479 (729579)
06-14-2014 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by iano
06-07-2008 12:26 PM


The Freewill Defense
As I was rereading this old topic, (a pastime that is often quite enjoyable...seeing what all of EvC members past and present have to say about various topics) I saw an old argument spring to life. Our old onetime member Brian started it:
Brian writes:
A person's own will is immaterial to the argument.
I'll break it down.
God knows everything.
God knows who will and who won't fulfill the criteria for salvation even before the beginning of creation.
Thus, God is creating people in the knowledge that countless millions of them will not be saved. This is pure unadulterated evil.
This argument has arisen at EvC before. How do I see it?
I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer, initially. Lucifer than chose...with Gods full awareness...to rebel and thus became satan by definition. Pure unadulterated evil. Thus God indirectly created evil...through the allowable rebellion of an angel. Having created the possibility of evil which became actualized evil after Lucifers decision, We can agree that God created evil. What is not agreed upon is the idea that Gods foreknowledge is itself evil. In fact, this sounds like an argument that a fallen spirit would make so as to gain the sympathies of humans.
Brian writes:
Take myself as an example. I am never going to accept Christianity as having anything to do with reality, thus I am doomed. Now, God already knew this about me billions of years before I was born, yet He does nothing to 'save' me.
I would ask Brian what God could possibly do to save him when he himself admits that he wont ever accept Gods authority...much like Lucifer could have done.
What do you all think...now...as you reread this topic with me?
(by the way,Ian...I like your argument about God seeing it all as a before and after viewpoint. Humans cant claim that God foreknowingly sentenced them...so long as they are not yet in hell as Lucifer now is. God never created hell for humans. God created hell as a place for fallen angels.
Edited by Phat, :

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 406 of 479 (729610)
06-15-2014 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Diomedes
06-15-2014 10:58 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Did God (indirectly or directly) create Great White Sharks or Flesh Eating Bacteria? If we died as a result of either of these natural phenomena, would it be His fault?
My point is(and im off on a tangent simply to test the arguments) humans have a role to play in all of this. We can whine all we want about it being Gods fault that evil exists. I will argue that initially evil was chosen. God was responsible for potentialized evil. satan the fallen angel was responsible for actualized (chosen) evil. As are we.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

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 Message 405 by Diomedes, posted 06-15-2014 10:58 AM Diomedes has not replied

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 Message 407 by ringo, posted 06-15-2014 3:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 408 of 479 (729624)
06-16-2014 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by ringo
06-15-2014 3:23 PM


Re: The Freewill Defense
ringo writes:
How are we responsible for great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria?
We are responsible for how we interact with them...particularly the sharks. Regardless of how they were created or Who created them. In addition, humans made bacteria worse through abusing and not fully understanding the ramifications of antibiotics--something we created. People need to stop blaming God for evil and instead accept that we are responsible to avoid it. It may well be that evil was created to tempt us. (temper us...as iron---being tempered---becomes steel. Humans, when tempered(tempted) become stronger also.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by ringo, posted 06-15-2014 3:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by Diomedes, posted 06-16-2014 9:45 AM Phat has replied
 Message 412 by ringo, posted 06-16-2014 11:50 AM Phat has replied
 Message 419 by Meddle, posted 06-16-2014 9:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 410 of 479 (729640)
06-16-2014 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by Diomedes
06-16-2014 9:45 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Its also silly to deify humans. Humanity will NEVER become godlike and understand this universe...we still kill each other and are greedy manipulative bastards. You may think that God is a silly concept and product of human imagination, whereas I believe that He imagined(created) us long before we could do much more than climb trees and eat bananas...thus we are a product of His imagination.
Too many people only know God as a character in a book or a story told round a campfire. Too few people have actually met Him.
(and nobody can really prove it...) My motive is simply to add to the ongoing discussions....
add by edit
And once again, the god you are describing if akin to some sick, deranged individual using their power to toy with others.
OK...if a Creator of all seen and unseen existed, how would YOU choose to define Him? How would you relate to humanity? What would you expect out of them? How would you use your power to interact with people?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

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 Message 409 by Diomedes, posted 06-16-2014 9:45 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by jar, posted 06-16-2014 11:17 AM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 413 of 479 (729645)
06-16-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by jar
06-16-2014 11:17 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
You certainly present the argument in order to get people to think and question. This is good of you.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by jar, posted 06-16-2014 11:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by jar, posted 06-16-2014 12:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 414 of 479 (729646)
06-16-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by ringo
06-16-2014 11:50 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
My premise was that evil was allowed to exist in order to temper us...to make us stronger.
What business is it of His to forgive us?
You want your employees to be bonded. You want them to have clean records.
You also want their hearts to be pure. We cant do it on our own and He cant do it for us. The process requires communion.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by ringo, posted 06-16-2014 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 418 of 479 (729666)
06-16-2014 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by jar
06-16-2014 12:06 PM


Re: The Freewill Defense
You yourself point out that GOD is unknowable. I submit that you cannot frame the issue with human logic, reason, and reality. You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart....which you somehow consider silly and/or fantasy. By holding on to your own veto power in regards to what you can factually prove...you may well have kept yourself out of communion.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by jar, posted 06-16-2014 12:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2014 1:34 AM Phat has replied
 Message 421 by jar, posted 06-17-2014 9:09 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 422 of 479 (729701)
06-17-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by jar
06-17-2014 9:09 AM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:
You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart....which you somehow consider silly and/or fantasy.
jar writes:
"What the hell does that even mean?"
It means (1) That God is alive..today..now...through Jesus...who is alive today.
It means embracing the idea and possibility of communion with God and believing that He desires communion. This does not abdicate you of personal responsibility to try and do your best. It does not make God responsible for your success and/or failure. It simply means that you agree that being of one mind(versus double minded) and being of one heart (with the Creator of all seen and unseen) is a beginning...
jar writes:
Do you mean that when something is refuted by facts I should ignore reality and embrace fantasy?
Not at all. Humans should be able to differentiate reality from fantasy. Often, however...in demanding evidence for supernatural(or unexplained) events, we can shut ourselves off from being healed...or of learning the "deeper mysteries of God". Right when we could learn something...of actually experiencing communion--edification---enlightenment...we instead resort to "Observer status" and critically examine God as if He were but a character in a book.
jar writes:
Why can't reason, logic or reality be used for that issue?
I agree that we should never simply "check our brains at the door". I mean that we should never abandon faith while waiting for evidence. You seem to think God is like a parent who has kicked their offspring out of the nest and refuses to help them at all. Such a God is unapproachable and distant...making me feel like pond scum rather than a human.
jar writes:
But at least according to the Bible God killed others and was a manipulative bastard.
What possible good does that statement do for peoples faith? If we humans are charged to try and do our best, what insight can possibly be had through viewing God as a flawed character in a book rather than the One whom we trust and whom we commune with and whom gives us wisdom so that we actually can do our best on a daily basis?

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by jar, posted 06-17-2014 9:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by ringo, posted 06-17-2014 12:06 PM Phat has replied
 Message 425 by jar, posted 06-17-2014 1:27 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 423 of 479 (729702)
06-17-2014 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by Tangle
06-17-2014 1:34 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Phat writes:
You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart.....
Tangle writes:
Christians bleat on about this as though it actually meant something. I have no idea what it means and no-one has ever explained it without using delusional and poetic language.
I tried explaining it to jar in the previous post. Even though you have said that you were atheist, I respect the idea that you are open to communion. That is a big step for someone who doubts the idea of God and who doubts the possibility that a Creator gives a hoot about us. Much respect.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2014 1:34 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2014 2:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 427 of 479 (821918)
10-15-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by ringo
06-17-2014 12:06 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
If we humans are charged to try and do our best, what insight can possibly be had through viewing God as a flawed character in a book rather than the One Whom we trust and commune with and Who gives us wisdom so that we actually can do our best on a daily basis?
ringo writes:
Because, as I've said more than once, those who claim to commune with God, who claim they have God-given wisdom, don't seem to have much sense. The wisdom which results from communion seems more like a subtraction than an addition.
So does that mean that you, unlike tangle, are not open to communion? IIRC you just wanted to be left alone. Kinda like riding out the hurricane and refusing the rescue helicopter. Granted you are having beef with the God I market, but assume for a moment that you are having beef with the God Who actually may exist...would you have beef with Him? Or is your beef with organized religion and shoddy marketing?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by ringo, posted 06-17-2014 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2017 12:26 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 429 of 479 (821920)
10-15-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by jar
06-17-2014 1:27 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
When you used to go to church and everyone recited the Book Of Common Prayer, and the people spoke as one voice, did you ever believe that anyone besides the people in the room heard the prayer? Were you concerned with anyone else besides the people in the room? Perhaps your belief is nothing more than the charge and the honor system. Perhaps that's all that is needed for you to believe in.
Perhaps since asking Jesus into your heart is untestable or untested or an example of what you believe to be bad marketing, you simply ignore the idea.
I will concede that honesty is more valuable than fantasy.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by jar, posted 06-17-2014 1:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by jar, posted 10-15-2017 12:54 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 430 of 479 (821921)
10-15-2017 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by Tangle
10-15-2017 12:26 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
tangle writes:
Who says I not open to communion?
Note that I said that ringo was not open to communion while you apparently were. Also note what I just said to jar. But now that you are here, I will ask you. Is it necessary to create God in order to believe in Him? Is is necessary to even believe at all? Can doing the best you can to help others be enough to pass any arbitrary test of what it means to be a Christian?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2017 12:26 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2017 1:54 PM Phat has replied

  
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