Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8925 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-21-2019 8:05 AM
37 online now:
Diomedes, JoeT, RAZD (3 members, 34 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jedothek
Post Volume:
Total: 860,160 Year: 15,196/19,786 Month: 1,919/3,058 Week: 293/404 Day: 11/96 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
456
...
19NextFF
Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 276 (729860)
06-20-2014 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by NoNukes
06-20-2014 10:26 AM


Re: why not miracle
Seems to me we could call this a matter reasonable minds can disagree on since you are so sure scripture indicates the events were supernatural. I gave my reasons based on my understanding of scripture why I think not: To my mind God's saying He's going to open the windows of heaven doesn't carry any more supernatural significance than saying He's going to bring the Assyrian army to devastate Israel, and it has none of the earmarks of miracle as I laid those out.

Nevertheless I don't have to call you names for believing as you do and it would be nice if you would spare me as well since my position is sincere and I think my arguments are scripturally founded.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 06-20-2014 10:26 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 06-20-2014 11:11 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 06-20-2014 11:12 AM Faith has responded
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 06-20-2014 12:45 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 32 of 276 (729861)
06-20-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
06-20-2014 8:37 AM


Re: why not miracle
Faith writes:

In Exodus He does say He's going to "do marvels" too,

Well if *causing* - ie making something happen - like flooding the earth to a point higher than the highest mountain by *causing* it to rain like it hasn't done since and *causing* a selection from all animals on the planet to treck to a desert in the back end of no-where and *predicting* this event in good time to *tell* Noah to build an impossible boat isn't pretty damn marvellous, you must be very underwhelmed by Penn and Teller.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 8:37 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 33 of 276 (729862)
06-20-2014 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
06-20-2014 8:37 AM


Re: why not miracle
duplicate deleted

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 8:37 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 34 of 276 (729863)
06-20-2014 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
06-20-2014 11:01 AM


Re: why not miracle
Minds might disagree but not reasonable ones.

Faith, you keep claiming that the Biblical Floods (either one, take your pick) are not miraculous. If so, then please present the natural mechanisms and forces that explain both what the chosen story claims happened and the evidence seen in reality.

If you use (as an example) the fountains of the deep then explain the physics and mechanics involved.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 11:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 276 (729864)
06-20-2014 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
06-20-2014 11:01 AM


Re: why not miracle
I gave my reasons based on my understanding of scripture why I think not

You have not provided any reason that would distinguish between the sun moving backwards, and water being suspended above the earth. My comment that there is no textual reason would be easy to rebut with a textual reason. I note that you did not bother giving one even in your response.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 11:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 11:56 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 276 (729867)
06-20-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
06-20-2014 11:12 AM


Re: why not miracle
You have not provided any reason that would distinguish between the sun moving backwards, and water being suspended above the earth.

Seemed obvious to me I guess. The miracles are all one-time events that clearly violate natural laws, the sun moving backwards being a clear example of that.

The water being suspended above the earth, on the other hand, is understood to have been there from the Creation until its release over 1500 years later, therefore clearly a part of the originally created natural physical order, just as the fountains of the deep are presented as also having been there all that time until their release as well.

Their release seems to have completely ended that early physical order, just a small part of the huge changes that can be biblically inferred to have accompanied the Flood and given us in many ways a different world to live in.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 06-20-2014 11:12 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 06-20-2014 12:08 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 39 by JonF, posted 06-20-2014 12:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 37 of 276 (729868)
06-20-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
06-20-2014 11:56 AM


Re: why not miracle
Seemed obvious to me I guess. The miracles are all one-time events that clearly violate natural laws, the sun moving backwards being a clear example of that.

I think the flood qualifies under that definition. As does opening the windows of heaven.

It is as I thought. Your reason is not text based.

The water being suspended above the earth, on the other hand, is understood to have been there from the Creation until its release over 1500 years later

That is not the understanding of people who read the Bible. The canopy is described as being still present in Psalms 148 as many commentators have noted. So when did it disappear?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 11:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 276 (729869)
06-20-2014 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by JonF
06-20-2014 10:52 AM


Re: why not miracle
She's infallible.

I'll settle for that answer. What I won't settle for is that she gleaned her position from the Bible, or that it is the 'traditional Protestant view' or anything similar.

But the issue is really at the heart of this thread. Why even bother doing a calculation about the permissible rate of rain fall if you don't deal with the source of the water. Other than demonstrating mastery of the twelve times tables, what was the point of that display of arithmetic in the OP?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by JonF, posted 06-20-2014 10:52 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5343
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 39 of 276 (729870)
06-20-2014 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
06-20-2014 11:56 AM


Re: why not miracle
The water being suspended above the earth, on the other hand, is understood to...

...be in violation of natural laws; i.e. requiring a miracle. And getting it down to Earth's surface without killing Noah & crew would require another miracle.

We agree that life as we know it existed 5000-6000 years ago. That means that atoms had the same properties and conservation of energy was in force. Given that your rainfall scenario is impossible.

just a small part of the huge changes that can be biblically inferred to have accompanied the Flood and given us in many ways a different world to live in

Life anywhere near as we know it could not exist in a world where your water is suspended in the atmosphere or in orbit in space. Life anywhere near as we know it could not exist in a world where such water was transported to the Earth's surface as a liquid.

You can cry "different back then!" as much as you want, but the fact is that back then had to be compatible with life as we know it. That places lots of constraints on how different it could be, and we know a lot of those constraints. Water was water, gravity was gravity, energy was conserved. Your claims require miracles.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 11:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17145
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 40 of 276 (729871)
06-20-2014 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
06-20-2014 11:01 AM


Re: why not miracle
Faith writes:

To my mind God's saying He's going to open the windows of heaven doesn't carry any more supernatural significance than saying He's going to bring the Assyrian army to devastate Israel....


The difference is that the Assyrians could come of their own volition whereas the windows of heaven can not open voluntarily or by any human agency. If the windows of heaven could open naturally, you'd have to explain why they did so once and only once in the history of the planet. Happening only once is an earmark of a miracle.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 11:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 1:01 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 276 (729872)
06-20-2014 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
06-20-2014 12:45 PM


Re: why not miracle
I don't care if you want to regard it as a miracle, just please allow me the right not to read it as a miracle. I've given my reasons, you are welcome to yours. I see it as opening on its own the way the clouds still always open on their own to release rain -- a smaller version of the original opening, making it not a one-time event -- although I've also said God is involved in everything, including such natural events. Nothing supernatural about it. But if you have to see it as supernatural for some reason, as others also do, fine, just don't tell me I have to see it that way. My reasoning is biblical, but there can be various ways of reading the Bible and on this point differences of opinion are not crucial. Mine follows the basic idea here:

http://www.truthnet.org/pdf/creation/genesisflood.pdf

Canopy Theory
- A theory that before the flood there existed many times the amount of water vapor in the upper
atmosphere than there is today.
- This theory is attributed in part because of the account in Genesis 1:7.
GE 1:7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which
were above the expanse; and it was so.
Genesis 1:7 (NASB)
- A “canopy” would have created a greenhouse effect in the pre-flood world.
- This could also help explain the longevity of man prior to the flood. Prior to the flood men
would live up to 800, or 900 years old.
- The canopy could have provided a shielding action against radiation helping prolong life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 06-20-2014 12:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by JonF, posted 06-20-2014 1:08 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 06-20-2014 1:18 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 06-20-2014 2:11 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 45 by jar, posted 06-20-2014 2:18 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 46 by NoNukes, posted 06-20-2014 3:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 5343
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 42 of 276 (729873)
06-20-2014 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
06-20-2014 1:01 PM


Re: why not miracle
OK, so you explicitly reject reality. Good to know.

Life anywhere near to as we know it could not exist under those conditions, and I've linked to reasons why exclusively from YECs. That scenario just cannot work without multiple miracles. NO matter how infallible you are with God in yuour pocket doing whatever you tell him to.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 1:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17145
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 43 of 276 (729874)
06-20-2014 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
06-20-2014 1:01 PM


Re: why not miracle
Faith writes:

I don't care if you want to regard it as a miracle, just please allow me the right not to read it as a miracle.


You have the right to any silly idea you want. And since this is a debate forum, I have the right to point out how silly your ideas are.

Believing that the flood happened is silly. Believing that it happened by wholly natural means is even sillier.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 1:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 276 (729875)
06-20-2014 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
06-20-2014 1:01 PM


Re: why not miracle
but there can be various ways of reading the Bible and on this point differences of opinion are not crucial. Mine follows the basic idea here:

The above is followed by a list of links that simply don't point out the place in the text where the actions in question are not miracles. You are not being asked here whether the actions happened, but instead about what the Bible says is the nature of the actions. For that reason, your post is a complete failure to address the issue at hand.

just please allow me the right not to read it as a miracle.

You can believe whatever you want. But if we are not going to visit the text, and question your stance on what it says, then what is the point of this debate? Yes, 5 times 12 is indeed 60. Discussion over?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 1:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 45 of 276 (729876)
06-20-2014 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
06-20-2014 1:01 PM


Re: why not miracle
LOL

You source is simply more bullshit Faith with absolutely NO explanatory power or value.

Please present the natural model, mechanism and evidence to support the falsely named "Canopy Theory".


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 1:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Prev12
3
456
...
19NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019