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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 276 (729888)
06-21-2014 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Dr Adequate
06-20-2014 11:56 PM


Re: why not miracle
The problem of course is that rain is a blessing rather than a curse in conditions of drought, so I'm afraid that if you want to contribute your services to bring rain to Texas you would have to repent of your sins, get many Texans to repent of their sins as well, and of course pray along with them.

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 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2014 11:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 1:43 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 56 of 276 (729889)
06-21-2014 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
06-20-2014 10:16 PM


Re: why not miracle
'Tis of course not a "natural mechanism" that does all this, but a spiritual mechanism, which science, alas, has no way of measuring and therefore no way of acknowledging. But there are always secondary or proximate causes, long chains of causes, that can keep the scientists busy.
Meanwhile we can learn from the Bible, if we have a mind to, that this entire universe is spiritually ruled, ruled by the Moral Law of God, that nothing occurs that doesn't have an ultimate or primary spiritual cause. We live in a sort of spiritual soup one might say, in which spiritual forces are continually active, and to which our own motives and actions, good or bad, sinful or repentant, contribute their effects.
Buddhist adepts, as well as some Hindu practitioners and others, can know something of this spiritual nature of the cosmos (how "karma" operates) although by their methods they will never know the God who made it, or find the way to salvation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 06-20-2014 10:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 06-21-2014 8:41 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 276 (729893)
06-21-2014 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dr Adequate
06-21-2014 1:43 AM


Re: why not miracle
You imagine a contradiction where there is none.
I don't suppose there is a way to test it. The moral influences of hundreds, thousands or millions of people, even as they change from day to day or minute to minute, all have to be calculated into the mix, along with the history of the location and all the minute to minute moral influences contributed by former inhabitants back generations, plus blessings and punishments already received and so on. You're a mathematician, you work it out.
Repentance, however, is powerful. If you could get a few hundred atheists, including yourself of course, to change their minds about God, give up their sins and give themselves to Jesus Christ, to live morally good lives, and pray fervently and believingly for specific blessings on a place to which you've gathered them, you might see some pretty dramatic changes in a very short period of time. I wish you God's blessings on such an experiment.
ABE: It might be a good test to pick a very difficult location, like Mongolia or Siberia, to set up shop and pray for favorable weather for planting crops. You might have to stay there a few years to make it a real test.
ABE: Or take them to a strife-ridden part of Africa where Muslims are always killing Christians. You'd have to commit to intensive prayer and loving your enemies around the clock.
Or where there is horrible disease, AIDs or Ebola or something like that.
ABE: I often wish we Christians would get together in such a way for such causes, but we're a disorganized bunch I fear. Maybe a bunch of converted atheists committed to a science project would do better. You WOULD have to become Christians though.
ABE: No, here's a big challenge: Las Vegas, where you live. Both the physical climate the moral climate could use an overhaul there.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 1:43 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 3:52 AM Faith has replied
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 3:48 PM Faith has replied
 Message 72 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 4:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 60 of 276 (729894)
06-21-2014 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Tangle
06-21-2014 2:04 AM


Re: why not miracle
Now that may be regarded as a miracle. Unless we think in terms of animals having a special sense that moves them in such a way, as they apparently sense some natural things like earthquakes in advance.
ABE: But selecting by twos and sevens, no, I have to agree, that's a miracle.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2014 2:04 AM Tangle has replied

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 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2014 3:35 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 63 of 276 (729897)
06-21-2014 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Tangle
06-21-2014 3:35 AM


Re: why not miracle
No, that is not the case I am making. The case I am making is that the scripture does not present the mechanics of the Flood as miraculous.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 64 of 276 (729898)
06-21-2014 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
06-21-2014 3:52 AM


Re: why not miracle
That would work too.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 66 of 276 (729900)
06-21-2014 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Percy
06-21-2014 7:24 AM


No, it's not just an intensification, it's a suspension of natural processes
Interesting. I don't see any reason to try to explain the mechanisms of the Flood naturalistically if it was a miracle, and yet the creationist ministries do of course make that attempt. ABE: There's no point in trying to explain the turning of water into wine naturalistically, or the feeding of thousands from a few pieces of bread and fish, or the parting of the Red Sea or bringing a dead person back to life and so on. /ABE
Essentially, a miracle is an unusual manifestation of God’s power designed to accomplish a specific purpose. The consistent Christian recognizes that God’s power is constantly displayed in the clockwork operation of the universe. The Bible teaches us that it is Christ’s power that holds everything together (Hebrews 1:3). Yet, we would not call that power a miracle because it is the normal way God upholds the universe. A miracle must be unusual if it is to be called a miracle.
A miracle is not necessarily a violation of the laws of nature. God could demonstrate His power by using the laws of nature in an unusual way.
Nonsense. Throughout scripture there are true miracles that are violations of natural law and they are ALWAYS used to prove that God is God; that was the purpose of Jesus' miracles too -- to demonstrate His being the Messiah, which means His Deity. Mere unusual natural occurrences have no such purpose.
That article is unfortunate, but I'm not going to try to find official arguments against it right now. I think the writer just can't cope with the extraordinariness of the Flood so he has to turn it into a miracle. If a miracle isn't a suspension of natural law, which has always been my understanding of it, but only a special intensification of natural processes, that's just boring. There are many who disagree with him about that and AIG should take that article down.
It just confuses things to include unusual events that don't violate natural law with the true miracles that do. The article claims the parting of the Red Sea was just an extreme expression of natural processes but that's just plain nuts. No natural wind is going to do such a thing and if it did the Israelites couldn't have walked across the sea. There is no natural way the water would part and make a dry path through it, that was a true miracle, a violation of natural law.
There may be no known mechanisms that explain the Flood NOW, but there is simply nothing in the description of it in scripture that makes it anything but an extremely unusual event, not a miracle.
But as I've also said, I'm not going to argue with those here who see it as a miracle, there's room for disagreement, I just see nothing in the Bible that defines it as a miracle myself.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 68 of 276 (729903)
06-21-2014 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
06-21-2014 8:41 AM


Re: why not miracle
You are referring to a post that was not about the Flood but about the Fall.
ABE: And there were no Biblical "Floods" in the plural, there was ONE Biblical Flood that destroyed the entire planet. I don't know where you get your nonsense but that's just one of your ways of turning the Bible into gobbledygook which can only confuse people who know nothing about it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 67 by jar, posted 06-21-2014 8:41 AM jar has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 74 of 276 (729920)
06-21-2014 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dr Adequate
06-21-2014 3:48 PM


Re: why not miracle
Ah ye of little faith. A few hundred devoted prayer warriors could turn the Mojave into a lush green paradise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 3:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 6:51 PM Faith has replied
 Message 82 by Coragyps, posted 06-21-2014 7:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 104 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 8:09 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 75 of 276 (729921)
06-21-2014 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by hooah212002
06-21-2014 4:50 PM


Re: why not miracle
What Dr. A said. Water gives off vapor which rises into the atmosphere where it forms clouds which may or may not release the water they contain, depending on this that or the other. I've watched many a fat cloud pass overhead refusing to drop any rain on my area (High Desert) when we are parched. They drop a lot of it on the other side of the Sierra where they already have enough, and then just blithely float overhead ignoring us completely. I suppose if we weren't such sinners and prayed more the clouds might favor us more. I mean, after all, they DO dump rain on us once in a while, why not more often? One thing about our clouds though is that they can be spectacularly beautiful, every shade of white through lavender gray through deep purple sometimes.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 6:50 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 78 of 276 (729924)
06-21-2014 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Dr Adequate
06-21-2014 6:51 PM


Re: why not miracle
The hard part would be getting together that many dedicated prayer warriors to go hang out on the Mojave.
ABE: But I don't have any great desire to convince people of the truth of Christianity by such means. As Jesus told the rich man in Hell, his brothers had Moses and the Prophets for that purpose and even if someone came back from the dead they wouldn't be convinced. You'd find some way of explaining away the prayer effect.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 6:51 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 276 (729925)
06-21-2014 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by hooah212002
06-21-2014 6:50 PM


Re: why not miracle
You guys are really hilarious. I had the same education everybody else gets about such things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 6:50 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 7:00 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 276 (729927)
06-21-2014 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by hooah212002
06-21-2014 7:00 PM


Re: why not miracle
I was TOLD that rain comes from evaporated water. That's what teachers do. They explain that water evaporates and rises, condenses back into water and falls. You can see the steam rising from the teakettle if you want proof. You can also see it condense on the ceiling in the shower. From thence it may or may not drip back down on you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 80 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 7:00 PM hooah212002 has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 276 (729929)
06-21-2014 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Coragyps
06-21-2014 7:10 PM


Re: why not miracle
Prayer has accomplished much for me personally.
However, I will agree that the answer to the prayers of the few hundred prayer warriors would probably include "secondary" or "proximate" means for the purpose of fulfilling our objective of turning desert into lush fertile land. Not moving the Sierra or Lake Superior, but coming up with irrigation systems, extensive green houses and that sort of thing. God also inspires creative solutions to problems.
Prayer, however, by fervent faithful prayer warriors, would most certainly get a lot more rain out of those clouds than they are normally inclined to bestow.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 276 (729930)
06-21-2014 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by hooah212002
06-21-2014 7:00 PM


Re: why not miracle
And the way I "see things differently" isn't by denying such things as the water cycle as we now experience it but only by believing what the Bible seems to indicate about how all that functioned quite differently before the Flood.
We can gather from Genesis 1:7 that the original Creation seems to have had a store of "waters" in the atmosphere quite a bit more extensive than our clouds contain since the Flood. We also gather that the land was watered by a "mist" rather than by rain, which leads us to infer that the first rain was that forty days and nights of same that began the Flood. The novelty of a rainbow after the Flood also contributes to the impression that rain was not part of the original Creation. We also gather that there were no deserts, that the whole Earth was lush and green. No high mountains, no snow and ice.
I don't have a different view of how the water cycle behaves now, the difference is that I believe things were most probably quite different before the Flood with respect to how all that operated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 7:00 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Coragyps, posted 06-21-2014 7:52 PM Faith has replied
 Message 91 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 8:40 PM Faith has replied
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 11:27 AM Faith has replied

  
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