Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 88 (8928 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-24-2019 4:08 PM
27 online now:
Faith, PaulK, RAZD, Tangle, Thugpreacha (AdminPhat) (5 members, 22 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jedothek
Post Volume:
Total: 860,369 Year: 15,405/19,786 Month: 2,128/3,058 Week: 502/404 Day: 17/89 Hour: 1/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
56
7
89
...
19NextFF
Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 91 of 276 (729937)
06-21-2014 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
06-21-2014 7:25 PM


Re: why not miracle
I'm sorry again, dear Faith. I am doing all I can to stick to science and things that we all can actually test. You've just proven that, contrary to what I thought before, you actually are capable of viewing events or evidence for an event and then coming to a conclusion based on witnessed data. We have a water cycle that you accept, so let's try and stick to things we have good evidence for, how's that sound? You have to realize that once you start inferring events that fly in direct opposition to things YOU have actually witnessed and what all observable data show, you leave our reality and realm of honest discussion and enter one of your own?

So I ask again, can we please stick to things you can show us all that don't require faith or belief?


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 7:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 8:53 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 92 of 276 (729938)
06-21-2014 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
06-21-2014 8:39 PM


Re: why not miracle
What ARE you getting at?

I am trying to get a handle on where your brain turns away from evidence the rest of us can test and into the bible where only you can see it. I mean no harm.


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 8:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 9:01 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 93 of 276 (729939)
06-21-2014 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
06-21-2014 7:16 PM


Re: why not miracle
Prayer, however, by fervent faithful prayer warriors, would most certainly get a lot more rain out of those clouds than they are normally inclined to bestow.

And what exactly is the model, mechanism and evidence that supports your assertion?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 7:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 276 (729940)
06-21-2014 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by hooah212002
06-21-2014 8:40 PM


Re: why not miracle
We have a water cycle that you accept, so let's try and stick to things we have good evidence for, how's that sound?

How's that sound? It sounds patronizing and totally ignorant of what a Christian believes.

So you want to stick to things that don't involve faith or belief?

But an account of a time in the past that may have been quite different from our own doesn't require any different kind of thinking, it's just different data to think about, and I believe the Bible writers perhaps pretty much the same way I believed my teachers.

You are imposing some other way of thinking on the situation than I do. Although you claim there is some essential difference between believing the Bible and believing things I've actually witnessed, the fact is I've only witnessed the water cycle on the small scale, I can't say I've witnessed what happens in the clouds I can only infer it and believe what I'm told about it. And I believe a ton of stuff about history that I've never witnessed too. And I believe what I'm told about things like how the sun and soil and water create the chemistry that makes plants grow and so on and so forth. The point is that believing all that is really not essentially different from believing the Bible accounts of a time that was different from ours.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 8:40 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 9:29 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 276 (729941)
06-21-2014 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by hooah212002
06-21-2014 8:43 PM


Re: why not miracle
I am trying to get a handle on where your brain turns away from evidence the rest of us can test and into the bible where only you can see it. I mean no harm.

See my post above. You are imagining some completely different kind of thinking when it comes to the Bible when in reality it is no different from believing what a teacher tells me about scientific matters, or a history book tells me about what happened centuries ago in a place I've never been.

I believe the admittedly very scanty accounts in Genesis about conditions on earth before the Flood that sound quite a bit different from conditions as we experience them now, and I use my mind just the way I would use it on any piece of information about anything else I've never experienced, to picture how that world was different from what I'm familiar with. Again, no different kind of thinking, just different data to think about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 8:43 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 96 of 276 (729942)
06-21-2014 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
06-21-2014 8:53 PM


Re: why not miracle
it's just different data to think about

Where is the data, the hard data that doesn't require faith or belief, that says what you are saying and backs up your claim? The claim that the world was completely different pre-"flood"?

and I believe the Bible writers perhaps pretty much the same way I believed my teachers.

Do you never check anything for yourself? Do you simply believe everything everyone tells you and take it at face value? You admitted to me earlier that you do not, in fact, do that and you have witnessed firsthand what water can do. What if I told you there are a great many other things you can do yourself to study the world around you and be able to understand it better?

the fact is I've only witnessed the water cycle on the small scale, I can't say I've witnessed what happens in the clouds I can only infer it and believe what I'm told about it.

Fair enough. But you don't have to just take peoples word for it: you can test their claims and see for yourself that the water cycle actually acts the way you were told it does. That is the beauty of science.

And that, dear Faith, is the stark difference between faith and science and is precisely the reason I am asking you to use data that we can both test equally.

And I believe what I'm told about things like how the sun and soil and water create the chemistry that makes plants grow and so on and so forth.

Have you never planted a seed and watched it grow? I have difficulty thinking you have not.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 8:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 2:18 AM hooah212002 has responded

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 97 of 276 (729943)
06-21-2014 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
06-21-2014 6:29 PM


Re: why not miracle
DA writes:

Sinners give off evil, which rises into the atmosphere and condenses as water, causing it to rain, unless they want it to rain, in which case it condenses as a hygroscopic substance which sucks all the water out of the atmosphere, preventing it from raining.

Faith writes:

What Dr. A said.

Did you read what he actually said?


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 6:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 2:30 AM hooah212002 has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 98 of 276 (729944)
06-21-2014 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
06-21-2014 8:21 PM


Re: why not miracle
True, prayer can be effective from across the world if necessary. But we're trying to change the climate of a particular location and I figure the people who are praying for it should have a stake in it if they are going to be effective at that.

OK then, the population of the Mojave desert currently exceeds two million, not bad for a desert. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/...st_of_cities_in_the_Mojave_Desert ). So you must have a hundred Christians already in place.

As for the idea that miracles would convert people, I think what Jesus said to the rich man makes the point. If you don't believe Moses and the Prophets, meaning the scriptures, which report many miracles in both Old and New Testaments, all intended to lead you to belief, then you aren't going to believe a miracle you see with your own eyes either.

Er, no. Seeing something is more convincing than reading about it. For example, seeing a talking rabbit is more convincing than reading Alice In Wonderland.

How would you explain it away? Oh you'd just figure it was a temporary cyclical change in the weather or something like that. Something to marvel at but nothing excessively out of the normal range of things. It would be hard to prove otherwise after all. Just a temporary increase in the rain, a boon for the farmers etc. Or maybe it's a more lasting change, connected to global warming.

Well at present you're the one making excuses. Turn the desert green, see what I say.

If you want to do something even more unarguably miraculous, try making the Mojave bloom except for a perfect circle, ten miles in radius, centered on the Las Vegas Strip.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 8:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 2:35 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 99 of 276 (729945)
06-22-2014 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by hooah212002
06-21-2014 9:29 PM


Re: why not miracle
it's just different data to think about

Where is the data, the hard data that doesn't require faith or belief, that says what you are saying and backs up your claim? The claim that the world was completely different pre-"flood"?

Well, I'd offer the Geologic Column myself, buried in which is an immense abundance of all kinds of creatures, many we aren't familiar with today, which should say something about pre-Flood conditions, such as that it had to be immensely fertile to produce that teeming life. But of course anything you find in the Geologic Column you attribute to a time much older than the Biblical Creation and you invent an environment for it specific to accidental trinkets buried with it in its grave site, all of which destroys the Biblical account.

But demanding that kind of data from a time before a huge destruction that wiped out everything is really unreasonable. The fact that we have a written mention of atmospheric water that sounds a lot fuller than what we have today, and a written mention that the Earth was watered by a mist, is really quite a bit of data under the circumstances.

and I believe the Bible writers perhaps pretty much the same way I believed my teachers.

Do you never check anything for yourself? Do you simply believe everything everyone tells you and take it at face value?

You would suspect me of that based only on my saying I believed my teachers about what they taught? But that's true for everybody. Mostly up through high school you're trying to cram in enough information to get a good grade, and you get the science of the water cycle rather early on. Later if you study say literature or history your data is pretty exclusively information in books. Not all of us are geared for a career in science. I think I could say that I did acquire a fair amount of anthropological and sociological field experience among the strange forms of humanity that populated the US during the sixties though, if that kind of observational science counts.

You admitted to me earlier that you do not, in fact, do that and you have witnessed firsthand what water can do. What if I told you there are a great many other things you can do yourself to study the world around you and be able to understand it better?

Golly gee, ya don't say.

the fact is I've only witnessed the water cycle on the small scale, I can't say I've witnessed what happens in the clouds I can only infer it and believe what I'm told about it.

Fair enough. But you don't have to just take peoples word for it: you can test their claims and see for yourself that the water cycle actually acts the way you were told it does. That is the beauty of science.

Golly gee, ya don't say. You know, school up through high school for most of us is a matter of cramming in the information. We have our own pet interests and although I dissected a frog in some science lab or other, that is not where my interests lay. I remember having frog legs in a restaurant later though; I liked them. That was more interesting than dissecting the frog in the lab. Meanwhile, there is nothing wrong with learning basic science from textbooks and teacher explanations, unless of course you're going to go on to become a scientist, which was not my interest.

And that, dear Faith, is the stark difference between faith and science and is precisely the reason I am asking you to use data that we can both test equally.

But dear Hooey, when one is talking about the only source of information one has, in this case a few lines from the Bible, where there simply is no hard data of the sort you wrongly think is the only source of knowledge, it would be foolish in the extreme to throw it out just because the kind of data you prefer isn't available. However, I would again point out the Geologic Column as that sort of hard data from the time in question, if only it hadn't been co-opted...

And I believe what I'm told about things like how the sun and soil and water create the chemistry that makes plants grow and so on and so forth.

Have you never planted a plant and watched it grow? I have difficulty thinking you have not.

Of course, but that experience tells a person absolutely nothing about the chemistry of growing plants. That you only get from reading up on it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : grammar correction

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 9:29 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 8:28 AM Faith has responded
 Message 112 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 2:00 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 276 (729947)
06-22-2014 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by hooah212002
06-21-2014 9:35 PM


Re: why not miracle
Did you read what he actually said?

Yes, very cute, but I translated it back into reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 9:35 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 2:18 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 276 (729948)
06-22-2014 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Dr Adequate
06-21-2014 10:36 PM


Re: why not miracle
If you want to do something even more unarguably miraculous, try making the Mojave bloom except for a perfect circle, ten miles in radius, centered on the Las Vegas Strip.

That would actually be a lot easier than making it bloom within that circle, since it encompasses the area of most spiritual resistance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 10:36 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-22-2014 5:56 AM Faith has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 102 of 276 (729950)
06-22-2014 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
06-22-2014 2:35 AM


Re: why not miracle
That's what I was thinking. And at the same time it would be much harder to offer a non-prayer related explanation. If your "prayer warriors" can do this, I absolutely promise to convert. Get on it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 2:35 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:10 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 276 (729951)
06-22-2014 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Dr Adequate
06-22-2014 5:56 AM


Re: why not miracle
Now I'm confused. You want us to pray for it to bloom inside that circle (which would be harder) or outside? Originally you said to make it bloom everywhere EXCEPT that circle didn't you?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-22-2014 5:56 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-22-2014 3:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18807
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 104 of 276 (729952)
06-22-2014 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
06-21-2014 6:24 PM


Re: why not miracle
Faith writes:

Ah ye of little faith. A few hundred devoted prayer warriors could turn the Mojave into a lush green paradise.

Perhaps ye of great faith could pray for an end to war, hunger and ethnic hatred. The number of displaced peoples has just reached the highest level since World War II: article

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 6:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 9:31 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18807
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 105 of 276 (729953)
06-22-2014 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
06-22-2014 2:18 AM


Re: why not miracle
Hi Faith,

Hooah is trying to see if you can describe a path to your conclusions using facts and reasoning (i.e., science) rather than faith and belief.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 2:18 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 9:34 AM Percy has responded

    
Prev1
...
56
7
89
...
19NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019