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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
Faith
Member
Posts: 32669
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 276 (729954)
06-22-2014 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Percy
06-22-2014 8:09 AM


Re: why not miracle
We're trying to find a project within the realm of the doable with minimal resources. The one we've picked is already straining the seams of the doable.

What you are asking is beyond our meager resources. Not that we don't all pray to end local expressions of all those things you list, which is more or less in the realm of the doable though if we're making any headway it's hard to tell.

Just as a side note, the cause of most of all that misery is most likely Islam but that isn't mentioned in the article. Wouldn't be politically correct to mention it I suppose. ABE: The article says "political solutions" are necessary. Fat chance when the perpetrator is Islam.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 8:09 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 06-22-2014 2:46 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32669
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 276 (729955)
06-22-2014 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Percy
06-22-2014 8:28 AM


Re: why not miracle
I've followed the only path there is and answered him quite aptly. Do you discern another route?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 8:28 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 10:05 AM Faith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18801
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 108 of 276 (729956)
06-22-2014 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
06-22-2014 9:34 AM


Re: why not miracle
Faith writes:

I've followed the only path there is and answered him quite aptly. Do you discern another route?

If by "answered him quite aptly" you mean you consider an answer based on faith sufficient for a scientific question, then yes, I "discern another route."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 9:34 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 10:06 AM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32669
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 109 of 276 (729957)
06-22-2014 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Percy
06-22-2014 10:05 AM


Re: why not miracle
No I challenged his very concept of a dichotomy between faith and science in this case. He's wrong.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 10:05 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 1:08 PM Faith has responded
 Message 115 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 3:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 110 of 276 (729959)
06-22-2014 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
06-21-2014 7:25 PM


Re: why not miracle
We can gather from Genesis 1:7 that the original Creation seems to have had a store of "waters" in the atmosphere quite a bit more extensive than our clouds contain since the Flood.

Does, in fact, Genesis say that the water came from the atmosphere? No. So when you use the word gather, what you are actually doing is filling in what you perceive as gaps with non-Biblical explanation.

Genesis actually lists two sources of water and says nothing about water coming from the atmosphere. If rain is literally rain, then it came from the limited supply of clouds. If God made more clouds, that would be miraculous If the rain was not literally rain, then the source is miraculous.

We also gather that there were no deserts, that the whole Earth was lush and green. No high mountains, no snow and ice.

None of which is specified anywhere in Genesis. Wholly made up, and, with the possible exception of the high mountains, of absolutely no relevance to the story in Genesis. Just more extra-Biblical nonsense.

The Bible tells us there was no man and no rain in Genesis 2:5. So we don't have to guess whether rain was part of the original creation. But at least one of those things was different by the time of the Flood. And there is nothing to say about whether or not both things were different.

So when people say they don't "gather" what you gather, the issue is not necessarily a lack of belief. It is that they don't take the same liberties with the text that you do.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 7:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:59 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18801
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 111 of 276 (729963)
06-22-2014 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
06-22-2014 10:06 AM


Re: why not miracle
Faith writes:

No I challenged his very concept of a dichotomy between faith and science in this case. He's wrong.

Are you saying there's no "dichotomy between faith and science in this case"? If so then that's interesting, bewildering even, but not the topic here.

Anyway, Hooah and everyone else in this science thread are interested in the evidence you can bring to support your conclusions and not in your faith that you are right.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Quote more fully.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 10:06 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:08 PM Percy has responded

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 49 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 112 of 276 (729964)
06-22-2014 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
06-22-2014 2:18 AM


Re: why not miracle
Well, I'd offer the Geologic Column myself, buried in which is an immense abundance of all kinds of creatures, many we aren't familiar with today, which should say something about pre-Flood conditions, such as that it had to be immensely fertile to produce that teeming life. But of course anything you find in the Geologic Column you attribute to a time much older than the Biblical Creation and you invent an environment for it specific to accidental trinkets buried with it in its grave site, all of which destroys the Biblical account.

Now we are kinda getting somewhere. the geologic column DOES show that the planet was different in the past. However, you seem to be the only person in existence to claim it was different the way you claim. Does this fact give you no pause? Does this not make you think you need to do a hefty amount of data digging to get some hard evidence worthy of convincing others since you are intent on having discussion about it?

Where is your non faith and belief evidence to support this? I will keep asking for this as long as you keep saying it was not a miracle and that there is evidence for it.

You told me earlier that you had the same education as the rest of us and just believe what your teachers and preachers told you. Why did you choose to not believe your teacher about what they said about the geologic column and instead stuck to the bible? Why did you accept their explanation of the water cycle but not the geology of the planet?

But demanding that kind of data from a time before a huge destruction that wiped out everything is really unreasonable.

It's only unreasonable if you are unwilling to do the work. If you continue to rail against everyone here about us being delusional and your model being the obvious choice, do you think it is honest of yourself to not be willing to show your work?

The fact that we have a written mention of atmospheric water that sounds a lot fuller than what we have today, and a written mention that the Earth was watered by a mist, is really quite a bit of data under the circumstances.

We have an even fuller, more detailed record written in the rocks themselves. We have methods, methods that you yourself can test for validity, to measure what these rocks say. These methods do not in any way require interpretation and ONLY rely on data that anyone can access.

I want you to show me that same data you keep saying exists that says what you say.

Not all of us are geared for a career in science.

I dissected a frog in some science lab or other, that is not where my interests lay.

unless of course you're going to go on to become a scientist, which was not my interest.

I completely understand that it is unreasonable to expect everyone to take such a liking to science.

But then I have to ask, why do you engage in scientific discussions if you admit to not having the proper knowledge or passion? You talk to everyone here as if they are the idiots, yet you admit to not really knowing more than a passing knowledge about these subjects.

Is that honest of you?

it would be foolish in the extreme to throw it out just because the kind of data you prefer isn't available.

It's not about what data I prefer, it is about what data is useful in these discussions. No one can have the same faith as you. No one. What we CAN have, though, is the same hard data and do the same tests. When you offer your data and the test you used to come to whatever conclusion you come to, anyone else can do the same test and see if your conclusions are valid.

That is why science is useful for discovering the world and faith is useful for discovering faith.

Of course, but that experience tells a person absolutely nothing about the chemistry of growing plants.

Not true at all. You can set up an experiment to determine that plants cannot grow in rocks without sunlight or water, but instead need healthy soil, sunlight and water.

I have a challenge for you: go watch a few episodes of Mythbusters to see how fun the simple scientific method can be and how you can do it yourself with little advanced schooling. I also ask that you check out the new iteration of Cosmos. Neil DeGrasse Tyson and crew, it seems to me, went to extreme lengths to make this version palatable to people on the fence about science.

Would you respect a discussion with me about Jesus if I never read the bible?


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 2:18 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:27 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 49 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 113 of 276 (729965)
06-22-2014 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
06-22-2014 2:30 AM


Re: why not miracle
How is his explanation different from the ones you have posted that say exactly the same thing? You yourself have said repeatedly that sinners and the like is what determines rain.

Are you now saying sin has no effect on rain? DA tried to actually give a workable explanation how sinners can cause droughts or floods. Why won't you do the same?


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 2:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:47 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17142
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 114 of 276 (729967)
06-22-2014 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Faith
06-22-2014 9:31 AM


Re: why not miracle
Faith writes:

What you are asking is beyond our meager resources.


What resources does prayer require?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 9:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:34 PM ringo has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 49 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 115 of 276 (729969)
06-22-2014 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
06-22-2014 10:06 AM


Re: why not miracle
Your faith is unique to you. How YOU read the bible is unique to you. There is no reliable way to ensure someone reads and understands the exact same way you do. This is glaringly obvious given how many sects of Christianity there are and the fact that none of you can honestly say the other is wrong without also admitting the possibility that you are as well.

Science, on the other hand, is at the very core accessible to everyone. You can gather the same data and perform the same tests as even Stephen Hawking or Michio Kaku can. Sure, they have more resources and spent far more time in school. But their knowledge is not locked away in their head. Their discoveries are right there at your fingertips for you to try. If you come to a different conclusion, you can have someone else test it and maybe even overthrow common knowledge.

Here, try some of these. Do some basic scientific experiments to get an understanding of the world around you firsthand.

Why does water boil? Because someone says so? What does water do when heat is applied to it? What does water do when extreme cold is applied to it? How do you find out? Through faith or experimentation?

Why won't your car door open? How do you find out? Through faith or experimentation?

Where is your lost dog? Do you just pray he comes home or do you go look for him?

Why do we need to drink water? What happens when you don't drink water? How do you find out? Through faith or experimentation?


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 10:06 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 116 of 276 (729970)
06-22-2014 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:10 AM


Re: why not miracle
Now I'm confused. You want us to pray for it to bloom inside that circle (which would be harder) or outside? Originally you said to make it bloom everywhere EXCEPT that circle didn't you?

I still am, I don't see what can have confused you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by PaulK, posted 06-22-2014 3:37 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 118 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 5:49 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15318
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 117 of 276 (729971)
06-22-2014 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dr Adequate
06-22-2014 3:29 PM


Re: why not miracle
Faith brings a whole lot of assumptions to her reading. And sometimes she confuses herself, as she just did.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-22-2014 3:29 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18801
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 118 of 276 (729972)
06-22-2014 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dr Adequate
06-22-2014 3:29 PM


Re: why not miracle
Dr Adequate replying to Faith writes:

I still am, I don't see what can have confused you.

There are two interpretations of what you said in the sequence of messages from your Message 98 to your Message 102. Here's the sequence:

Dr Adequate in Message 98 writes:

If you want to do something even more unarguably miraculous, try making the Mojave bloom except for a perfect circle, ten miles in radius, centered on the Las Vegas Strip.

Faith in Message 101 writes:

That would actually be a lot easier than making it bloom within that circle, since it encompasses the area of most spiritual resistance.

Dr Adequate in Message 102 writes:

That's what I was thinking.

What you're referring to in this part of your Message 102 isn't unambiguous. You could be referring to making it bloom within the circle. Or you could be referring to the belief that making it bloom outside the circle would be easier.

So now it's clear you meant the latter, but not why you think it would be harder to offer a non-prayer explanation for blooming outside the radius rather than inside. Is it because of all the water supply infrastructure around Las Vegas?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-22-2014 3:29 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:10 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-22-2014 8:16 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32669
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 276 (729975)
06-22-2014 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Percy
06-22-2014 1:08 PM


Re: why not miracle
My claim is that data in the Bible is as good as data in the field. You may want to call that faith, I call it simply trusting in the report the way I would trust in any other report I read about natural facts. I put the Bible's report above the current scientific explanations for things in the distant past that the Bible describes because I know the Bible is trustworthy. You put science above the Bible and call my trust in it "faith" which is really just a way of saying it's wrong. We have a basic disagreement here. There is no real dichotomy between science and faith in my mind but there is in yours because you trust science over God's word.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 1:08 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 06-22-2014 8:07 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 145 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 9:50 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32669
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 120 of 276 (729976)
06-22-2014 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Percy
06-22-2014 5:49 PM


Re: why not miracle
What you're referring to in this part of your Message 102 isn't unambiguous. You could be referring to making it bloom within the circle. Or you could be referring to the belief that making it bloom outside the circle would be easier.

So now it's clear you meant the latter, but not why you think it would be harder to offer a non-prayer explanation for blooming outside the radius rather than inside. Is it because of all the water supply infrastructure around Las Vegas?

Aha, that may clear it up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 5:49 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
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