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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 166 of 276 (730028)
06-23-2014 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
06-23-2014 10:30 AM


Re: why not miracle
There's nothing nonbiblical about such an interpretation, it's just that you prefer your interpretation so you call yours the biblical one... You can't just decide that your interpretation is correct against all those of a different understanding who don't regard the source of water as miraculous. You may prefer your interpretation but it's no more biblical than theirs so you can't use it the way you are doing to make it the standard from which others deviate.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

TO YOU!

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 10:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 10:41 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32696
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 167 of 276 (730029)
06-23-2014 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by JonF
06-23-2014 8:15 AM


Re: Working with real data
Yes it was a calculation rather than a measurement. It was based on the Biblical claim of forty days and forty nights of rain, for which there is no estimate of rate so there's a range of possibilities, I've said nothing about an infinite supply.

The idea is that the rain was part of it, the fountains of the deep the other part of it, and all that interested me was finding out that at a rate of rainfall that is extremely heavy but not impossible by today's measurements the depth of the Flood could have been achieved without any other source involved. That rate would be substantially reduced by the input of the fountains of the deep. I made no assumptions about how much water was available at either source, just that it rained for forty days and forty nights so the rate is open to adjustment.

I don't assume any change in the basic laws of physics and nothing anyone has said about that is more than wild conjecture since you have nothing you can measure to prove anything about it.

But one thing is for sure, you cannot "discard" a fact like the forty days and nights of rain, because it comes from God's word, all you can fairly do is change the rate to accommodate what you think wouldn't strain the laws of physics. If any rate would do that according to your reasoning then your reasoning needs adjustment. You weren't there, there's nothing for you to measure, it's nothing but your own mental conjurings that are coming up with such dogmatic statements about the laws of physics. All anyone has at our remove is our imagination, but creationists have belief in the word of God and you don't and that's the big difference.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by JonF, posted 06-23-2014 8:15 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by JonF, posted 06-23-2014 1:21 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32696
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 168 of 276 (730030)
06-23-2014 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by herebedragons
06-23-2014 10:37 AM


Re: why not miracle
Fine, we have two competing sets of interpretations, I like mine you like yours, nobody can prove any of it so leave it as is.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 10:37 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 169 of 276 (730031)
06-23-2014 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
06-23-2014 10:30 AM


Re: why not miracle
Faith writes:

....and the windows of heaven were opened

How could the 'windows of heaven' be opened without a miracle?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 10:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 10:59 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 179 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 11:21 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32696
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 170 of 276 (730032)
06-23-2014 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Tangle
06-23-2014 10:47 AM


Re: why not miracle
How could the 'windows of heaven' be opened without a miracle?

As I keep saying, if you want to consider it a miracle I'm not going to argue with you, but I don't think that's the only possible explanation and the whole Flood scenario is generally treated by SOME creationists as a natural event so I take it as natural too, but it's not crucial to any of it.

But if you want a naturalistic explanation, a change in the environment that changed the temperature of the air could have condensed the vapor into water heavy enough to fall.

ABE: Also, the way the water sources are stopped suggests a natural source:

Gen 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

It was "restrained" which suggests a natural stopping of the rain which further suggests that the "windows" that were opened to release it at the beginning is a metaphor for what happens naturally when a cloud turns from vapor into rain. There is no hint that the source of the rain went away, the rain was restrained so it seems the source was diminished but not eliminated.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2014 10:47 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 11:10 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 171 of 276 (730033)
06-23-2014 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
06-23-2014 10:59 AM


Re: why not miracle
But if you want a naturalistic explanation, a change in the environment that changed the temperature of the air could have condensed the vapor into water heavy enough to fall.

A good start. Now what is the natural model, mechanism, process that will instantly turn the rain on and off all across the world?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 10:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:15 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32696
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 172 of 276 (730034)
06-23-2014 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by hooah212002
06-23-2014 1:19 AM


Re: The List
Actually Hooah, even though it's off topic in this thread I'm grateful to you for asking me to make a list. It needs quite a bit of refining and fleshing out but it's a good way to try to get all the facts I normally argue from into one systematic statement.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by hooah212002, posted 06-23-2014 1:19 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 11:15 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32696
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 173 of 276 (730035)
06-23-2014 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by jar
06-23-2014 11:10 AM


Re: why not miracle
Who said it had to be instantaneous.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 11:10 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 11:17 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 174 of 276 (730036)
06-23-2014 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
06-23-2014 11:14 AM


Re: The List
But none of the items in the list are facts Faith, except for the fact that you keep repeating them and pretending they are facts.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:18 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 175 of 276 (730037)
06-23-2014 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
06-23-2014 11:15 AM


Re: why not miracle
The Bible does. It turns on on one day and stops 40 days later.

What is the model, method, process, mechanics involved?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:15 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:19 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32696
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 176 of 276 (730038)
06-23-2014 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by jar
06-23-2014 11:15 AM


Re: The List
They are all facts.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 11:15 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 11:19 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32696
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 177 of 276 (730039)
06-23-2014 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by jar
06-23-2014 11:17 AM


Re: why not miracle
That doesn't imply anything "instantaneous" to me, the starting and stopping could both have taken some time to build up and lose momentum.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 11:17 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 11:25 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 178 of 276 (730040)
06-23-2014 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
06-23-2014 11:18 AM


Re: The List
It does not matter how many times you repeat a falsehood, it does not make it true.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:18 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:22 AM jar has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 179 of 276 (730041)
06-23-2014 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Tangle
06-23-2014 10:47 AM


Re: why not miracle
How could the 'windows of heaven' be opened without a miracle?

Simple. If you use the Biblical account to draw the known universe you get something like the image below (complete with scripture references).

It's clear that the windows of heaven are physical constructs in the formation of the vault or dome. They simply needed to be unlocked and thrown open.

However, why Faith, who insists on a clear and simple reading of the Bible, would depart from such a clear and simple reading is beyond me.

HBD

P.S. Please note, that I do not mean to ridicule the Bible itself, I have the utmost respect and confidence in the Bible. I only mean to ridicule the idea that a plain, simple and literal reading is at all possible, let alone a requirement.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2014 10:47 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:25 AM herebedragons has responded
 Message 187 by NoNukes, posted 06-23-2014 11:47 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32696
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 180 of 276 (730042)
06-23-2014 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by jar
06-23-2014 11:19 AM


Re: The List
You should know.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 11:19 AM jar has not yet responded

    
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