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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 276 (729984)
06-22-2014 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:51 PM


Re: why not miracle
Nope I've never said one thing that is "anti-science," all I've ever said is that the sciences that purport to interpret the unknowable past are a crock.

Yep. That means you have a problem with sciences and their use of the scientific method. Meanwhile, you yourself have no problem spouting off your on opinion on the same unknowables.

That's fine. It is the position I expect you to take, and it would be consistent with believing the Bible first. My point though is that your position also departs from the Bible.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 7:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 276 (729987)
06-22-2014 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
06-22-2014 7:16 PM


Re: why not miracle
But of COURSE. There is no such thing as a Biblical view that is different from yours.

All I expect from your interpretation of the Bible is that it can be justified textually. For the purposes of this discussion, I think that's a reasonable thing to do. My personal interpretation, which is that nearly all Genesis is allegorical is something I've put aside for this discussion.

What I've noted and commented on repeatedly is that you seem utterly unable to attach your interpretations of the Bible regarding the sources of water to the text of the Bible itself, instead citing "other Creationists" as your sources. That's not something I am going to respect in a debate. Besides that, plenty of other Creationists disagree with you.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 7:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 7:56 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 276 (729997)
06-22-2014 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
06-22-2014 7:56 PM


Re: why not miracle
You seem to be inventing problems that don't exist. What on earth is wrong with the BIBLICAL sources of the water in the "fountains of the deep" and the waters above the firmament of Genesis 1:7? Those are the two sources given by MOST creationists that I'm aware of.

Obviously there is more to the issue than that. In order to justify your claim that the sources of the flood are not miraculous, you find the need to depart from both the Bible and science.

For example, you say that the windows of heaven opened the same way clouds do today to release rain. Well clouds do not open up. Clouds are water vapor, so that's obviously not correct. There is no similarity whatsoever between the way water vapor drops form and fall from clouds and opening of the windows of heaven. You just pretend there is so that you can claim that opening of the windows of heaven is not a miracle despite the fact that it meets your own definition.

Then I have to remind you that the water canopy did not disappear at the end of the events in Genesis, something that reinforces the conclusion that the opening of the windows of heaven was a one time event.

I refer to "other creationists" to answer this insistence here on imputing my view of the Bible to me as if I didn't share it with others.

I'm not interested in how many other people believe as you do, because the question is not about doctrine but about the text. I've asked you on several occasions to tie your interpretation of things to the Bible. You've responded with things like, please let me believe what I wanted to believe, and accused me of accepting only a single interpretation, or cited other Creationists, or told me that it is useless to pursue details. In short, you've stayed as far away from citing the Bible in answering the question as is possible.

At this point I don't expect you to do any better.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 7:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 9:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 159 of 276 (730018)
06-23-2014 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
06-22-2014 9:50 PM


Re: why not miracle
The water canopy theory of creationists is about water VAPOR, a LOT of it, suspended in the atmosphere, which is exactly the situation with clouds.

Not a single reference to the text in the whole post. Just some citations to Creationist stuff. Clouds don't open and close, so water from the water canopy cannot be just like clouds. Further, the location of the separated waters is in heaven according to Genesis. And there is not a single mention of the water canopy in the Flood account. That's a complete extrapolation by Creationists. It's just non textual acknowledgement that a source of water is necessary.

The term floodgates is used elsewhere in the Bible making it clear that floodgates is not some expression for access to the atmosphere. See Malachi 3 and 2 Kings 2. The term cannot possible mean just cloud like access to the atmosphere.

Only after seeing that the water canopy is non-Biblical can we also note that the water canopy if real would have made hell on earth. I understand that you say you don't give a hoot about what scientists says, but that's not quite true is it? You do acknowledge that the water could not have been removed by evaporation.

Tying this back to the OP, the OP is seen as a meaningless exercise in arithmetic because the flood as described in Genesis was miraculous. Absent a miracle there is no basis for extrapolating a single hours rainfall to a 40 day period. Such a rainfall would be impossible without a miracle.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 9:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 10:30 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 276 (730049)
06-23-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by herebedragons
06-23-2014 11:21 AM


However, why Faith, who insists on a clear and simple reading of the Bible, would depart from such a clear and simple reading is beyond me.

Easily answered. It is readily apparent is that some Creationists claims to legitimacy, namely that they use the straightforward, no-compromise reading of the text are without real substance. Often what we see is an attempt to shovel doctrine into the Bible. The Flood story is an apt example, because the particular Creationist version Faith holds to is rife with non-textual assumptions.

Nothing new. This is something that was pointed out during the Grand Canyon discussion. Exactly what does the Bible say about that anyway?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 11:21 AM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:53 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 276 (730057)
06-23-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
06-23-2014 11:53 AM


Why are you arguing at this level of angels dancing on the head of a pin anyway?

I've made the reasons behind my questions perfectly clear. My point is that your interpretation is non-textual to the point of being a sham.

Again, congratulations on doing some arithmetic correctly. But right now the calculations, which by the way are not measurements, have no point.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 12:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 276 (730068)
06-23-2014 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
06-23-2014 12:11 PM


It's not about me.
The sham is your crazy insistence that something has to be miraculous just because you can't tell a metaphor from a literal description.

I'm open to hearing your metaphoric interpretation. I am just going to continue to insist that you tie that interpretation to the text and that you stop mangling science unless you are disagreeing with it. Of course I'm going to be looking for a bit of consistency as well as agreement with the Bible.

The point of this thread is for you to make your case for your interpretation. Calling me names does not do that. The biggest obstacle for you, as I see it, is that the canopy you require is non-Biblical. You'll need to make portions of the Creation story metaphorical to the point where they are completely non-literal.

But the discussion will never get to that point, because you are incapable of holding up your end.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 12:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 2:16 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 276 (730091)
06-23-2014 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Faith
06-23-2014 2:16 PM


Re: It's not about me.
Who is calling whom names? Sham this, unbiblical that. You're the namecaller.

Except that I've backed my position up with detail and Bible text; do that and you've got something. Sham and unbiblical refer to your position and not to your personally. If I call you a shyster for perpetrating a sham, that would be name calling. But it would also be wrong because I accept that you believe what you are posting.

I've given adequate support for the idea of the vapor canopy, there is nothing more to say.

You've provided next to nothing. You have refused to answer any of the most obvious questions about the water/vapor canopy. But I believe you are right when you say that there is nothing more. You don't have any better answers.

The point of the thread was simply to consider if the Biblical sources AS I UNDERSTAND THEM

Your demands are just something you're throwing at me from who knows where.

You posted a topic in the science forums. These forums are not a soap box for you to spout off Creation Science without response or debate. You have a blog for that kind of exposition and besides that its all been done in more detail elsewhere. Some sites even attempt to address the questions I've asked you. When you post stuff here, you should expect to be asked to back it up. I owe you no apology for insisting on that.

Quite frankly, even indulging your 'understanding' on Biblical terms only is a courtesy here. I didn't even ask you for any evidence for your position.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 2:16 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 276 (730123)
06-23-2014 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
06-23-2014 10:35 PM


Re: Its Literally Metaphoric
The whole creation science enterprise treats the event as natural, that's the reason they try to explain it in naturalistic terms.

Your statement is incorrect. Examples to the contrary have been provided in this thread.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 10:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 06-23-2014 11:51 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 236 of 276 (730150)
06-24-2014 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Faith
06-24-2014 9:39 AM


Re: Its Literally Metaphoric
As for the word "windows" the Bible uses metaphors frequently

Of course windows or floodgates are a metaphor. That is not the major problem. As I indicated before the issue is the violence you must do elsewhere to the text. In particular, problem is that the water vapor canopy you want so badly must is described thusly:

quote:
Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

The water canopy then is "above" the sky not in the sky. It is not described as part of the atmosphere. And it is not described as vapor at all. The waters are nothing at all like clouds. What makes clouds produce rain is no mystery (yes, I saw your question about that before you deleted it) but whatever actually happened when the floodgates opened, it was not just super rain.

quote:
Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years

So the sun and moon are in the vault, below the waters in heaven. Is this too a metaphor? What isn't a metaphor? Or is it just bad science? Is there more bad science?

And the waters above are still there in Psalms 148. They did not go away after the Flood.

The water canopy as you and some of your fellow Creationists would have it is non-Biblical. If the entire point of it is to make the Flood natural rather than supernatural, then the rend of the text serves a very questionable purpose.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 06-24-2014 9:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 276 (730256)
06-26-2014 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
06-25-2014 3:10 PM


Re: Scripture
I just took a look through three commentaries at Blue Letter Bible and all of them refer to the firmament as just another word for the heavens or sky, one calling it "poetic."

The text says the firmament is heaven. No problem there.

But then there is a vault of the sky that separates the waters in heaven from the waters on earth. Which means that your look at the commentaries does not resolve the issue.

Then the text indicates that on day four lights separating day and night and indicating the seasons were placed in vault of the sky.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 3:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
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