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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
OS
Member (Idle past 3270 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 331 of 1498 (730511)
06-28-2014 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by NoNukes
06-28-2014 5:19 PM


Ye I don't see any description of the reverse decay you say is there.
Ar-40 is supposedly an exception, and it is also supposedly the most stable isotope-- I think.
There is also that pesky energy problem that works in the opposite direction as your post suggested.
The energy should be less in the opposite direction. The tricky things with isotopes is how does the proton count change. With some, it is the colder the faster. I suspect C14 maybe this way.
Edited by OS, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by NoNukes, posted 06-28-2014 5:19 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by NoNukes, posted 06-28-2014 6:05 PM OS has replied

  
OS
Member (Idle past 3270 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 332 of 1498 (730512)
06-28-2014 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by NoNukes
06-28-2014 5:23 PM


Re: Ar-40 to K-40
Implied by what?
By the Argon isotope chart under "Argon" in Wikipedia.
Cool. Let's hear about why those things are nutjobs.
Tree rings don't determine the age of trees. Carbon-14 does, and I believe carbon-14 date don't match tree ring dating.
Ice melts, and the artic's icecap is constantly shifting. You can't prove it caused a flood or dates anything. Current research in this area is done at taxpayers expense, whereas most radiometric dating isn't.
Edited by OS, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by NoNukes, posted 06-28-2014 5:23 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 333 of 1498 (730514)
06-28-2014 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by OS
06-28-2014 5:36 PM


C14
Tree rings don't determine the age of trees. Carbon-14 does, and I believe carbon-14 date don't match tree ring dating.
There are several good threads here on C14 dating and methods of corroboration. You should check them out before expounding further.
Oh, and please tell us how many C14 samples you have submitted in your career.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 5:36 PM OS has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 334 of 1498 (730515)
06-28-2014 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by OS
06-28-2014 3:22 PM


so lets discuss reality then: step 1 --
And from what you've written here I have to suppose that you don't know what I'm talking about. ...
Curiously I'll let the others deal with you on this non-sense.
... But if you want to get into tree rings and ice core samples as proof; you should be disappointed by it. Tree rings are the training ground of radiocarbon daters, and ice core samples is impossibly stupid; I mean total nutjob, as in worse than making a wacky assumption.
Message 332: Tree rings don't determine the age of trees. Carbon-14 does, and I believe carbon-14 date don't match tree ring dating.
So do you want to discuss the actual evidence and the source/s of your misinformation and misguided assertions ... ie do you want to actually defend your statements or will you run away as all the other creationists have?
We can start with the Bristlecone pine "Methuselah", with an estimated germination date of 2832 BCE.
Would you care to show how the science of dendrochronology has it all wrong? With objective evidence rather than bald assertion?
It's been a while since any creationist made even a half serious attempt at this.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : added

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 3:22 PM OS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 6:19 PM RAZD has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 335 of 1498 (730517)
06-28-2014 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by OS
06-28-2014 5:31 PM


Ar-40 is supposedly an exception, and it is also supposedly the most stable isotope-- I think.
An exception to what general principle?
The energy should be less in the opposite direction. The tricky things with isotopes is how does the proton count change. With some, it is the colder the faster. I suspect C14 maybe this way.
You appear to be making this stuff up. So far, every time some asks you for a reference you've either told them to look it up themselves, or have had to back off on a claim that it can be found where you say it is. Is it your claim that the typical decay process absorbs energy and thus can be reversed by super cooling. Because that claim is extraordinary.
I have to admit to not being able to keep track of what you are claiming. What is it you suspect about C14? Let's recall that C14 decays to N14 through beta decay and that there is no evidence of any substantive effect of temperature and pressure on such processes.
Carbon 14 decays by emitting a beta particle and gamma radiation, both of which carry away energy. The process is exothermic. Your suspicion is wrong.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 5:31 PM OS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 6:15 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 336 of 1498 (730518)
06-28-2014 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by OS
06-28-2014 5:36 PM


Re: Ar-40 to K-40
Tree rings don't determine the age of trees. Carbon-14 does, and I believe carbon-14 date don't match tree ring dating.
The correlation between tree ring dating and carbon dating have been discussed here extensively as has the correlation between tree age and tree ring count.
I would personally be interested in any information that underlies your belief. It would make a great thread, particularly if you are willing to do some real homework/research. But I'm not interested in discussing something being "nutjob" without such information.
NoNukes writes:
Implied by what?
OS writes:
By the Argon isotope chart under "Argon" in Wikipedia.
Nothing in that chart implies any such thing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 5:36 PM OS has not replied

  
OS
Member (Idle past 3270 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 337 of 1498 (730519)
06-28-2014 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by NoNukes
06-28-2014 6:05 PM


I should have logically said the colder the slower.
An exception to what general principle?
Ar-39, Ar-41, and Ar-42 can decay into potassium isotopes of the same number.
Carbon 14 decays by emitting a beta particle and gamma radiation, both of which carry away energy. The process is exothermic. Your suspicion is wrong.
Yet there are also other issues like water, and that you can't carbon date any corpse accurately.
Edited by OS, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by NoNukes, posted 06-28-2014 6:05 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by RAZD, posted 06-28-2014 6:29 PM OS has replied
 Message 343 by NoNukes, posted 06-28-2014 6:42 PM OS has replied
 Message 345 by Coyote, posted 06-28-2014 7:01 PM OS has not replied

  
OS
Member (Idle past 3270 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 338 of 1498 (730520)
06-28-2014 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by RAZD
06-28-2014 5:58 PM


Re: so lets discuss reality then: step 1 --
Would you care to show how the science of dendrochronology has it all wrong? With objective evidence rather than bald assertion?
1. Quit lying that it is a science. 2. Quite [quit] pretending it is used to calibrate lambda for Radiocarbon Dating.
Edited by OS, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by RAZD, posted 06-28-2014 5:58 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 339 of 1498 (730521)
06-28-2014 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by OS
06-28-2014 5:36 PM


Re: Ar-40 to K-40
Ice melts, and the artic's icecap is constantly shifting. You can't prove it caused a flood or dates anything. Current research in this area is done at taxpayers expense, whereas most radiometric dating isn't.
Curiously, the ice layers are counted in Greenland and the Antarctic, as well as locations in S. America and China ... not the floating ice at the arctic.
Amusingly, the actual research is done by government grants from several nations, so bitching about "taxpayers expense" is just whining about science being done without political -- or religious -- interference.
Have a good whine, and we'll watch the scientists laugh at you as you dig yourself deeper and deeper into the 85 pile.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : typo

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 5:36 PM OS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 6:26 PM RAZD has replied

  
OS
Member (Idle past 3270 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 340 of 1498 (730522)
06-28-2014 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by RAZD
06-28-2014 6:22 PM


Re: Ar-40 to K-40
Have a good whine, and we'll watch the scientists laugh at you as you dig yourself deeper and deeper into the 85 pile.
Just remember what I said about dedrenchronlogy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by RAZD, posted 06-28-2014 6:22 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 341 of 1498 (730523)
06-28-2014 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by OS
06-28-2014 6:15 PM


Ar-39, Ar-41, and Ar-42 can decay into potassium isotopes of the same number.
Curiously, not one of those is 40Ar ...
So because 238U decays into 234Th which decays to 234mPa which decays to 234U these reactions should be reversible?
Fascinating.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 6:15 PM OS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 6:32 PM RAZD has replied

  
OS
Member (Idle past 3270 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 342 of 1498 (730525)
06-28-2014 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by RAZD
06-28-2014 6:29 PM


Curiously, not one of those is 40Ar ...
It is probably because no one has tried it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by RAZD, posted 06-28-2014 6:29 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 343 of 1498 (730526)
06-28-2014 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by OS
06-28-2014 6:15 PM


Ar-39, Ar-41, and Ar-42 can decay into potassium isotopes of the same number.
Which implies nothing at all about Ar40. It turns out that Ar40 is composed of exactly the same nucleons as in 10 alpha particles. As a general rule, the lower weight nuclei composed in such a way are unusually stable isotopes. Examples C12, N14, O16 and Neon 20 are all stable. Above a certain atomic number, electrostatic repulsive forces become too great and more neutrons are needed to produce other forces to make a stable nucleus.
What you are telling me is that because you know next to nothing about nuclear physics, you are free to intuit rules that turn out not to work.
Yet there are also other issues like water, and that you can't carbon date any corpse accurately.
Not going to accept that on just your say so. You haven't been right about much yet.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 6:15 PM OS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 6:56 PM NoNukes has replied

  
OS
Member (Idle past 3270 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 344 of 1498 (730527)
06-28-2014 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by NoNukes
06-28-2014 6:42 PM


NoNukes writes:
Which implies nothing at all about Ar40. It turns out that Ar40 is composed of exactly the same nucleons as in 10 alpha particles. As a general rule, the lower weight nuclei composed in such a way are unusually stable isotopes. Examples C12, N14, O16 and Neon 20 are all stable. Above a certain atomic number, electrostatic repulsive forces become too great and more neutrons are needed to produce other forces to make a stable nucleus.
But what do cold temperatures do to those forces? Extreme cold makes metal brittle, for example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by NoNukes, posted 06-28-2014 6:42 PM NoNukes has replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 345 of 1498 (730528)
06-28-2014 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by OS
06-28-2014 6:15 PM


Yet there are also other issues like water, and that you can't carbon date any corpse accurately.
I'd like to see your sources for that, as I've carbon dated many dozen bones, including human bones.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by OS, posted 06-28-2014 6:15 PM OS has not replied

  
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