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EvC Forum Science Forums Geology and the Great Flood Continuation of Flood Discussion

# Summations Only

Author Topic:   Continuation of Flood Discussion
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 308 days)
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 Message 31 of 1304 (731289) 04-28-2014 2:05 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
The model suggests that there is a certain order to the depositions.

edge
Member (Idle past 570 days)
Posts: 4696
Joined: 01-09-2002

 Message 32 of 1304 (731290) 04-28-2014 2:08 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
 The model suggests that there is a certain order to the depositions.

Please describe this order and document what the model 'says'.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.

Faith
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 Message 33 of 1304 (731291) 04-28-2014 2:15 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?

edge
Member (Idle past 570 days)
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 Message 34 of 1304 (731292) 04-28-2014 2:18 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
Haven't we been over that?

Transgression/regression with some erosion.

ETA: By the way, this does not answer my questions. Please describe the order and tell us what the model says.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.

JonF
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 Message 35 of 1304 (731293) 04-28-2014 3:49 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
She can't see that the model is of a moment in time (and the zones move without changing what's already deposited) and it's not all that happens (uplift, subsidence, erosion). She sees an order in the model that is not exactly duplicated in the GC and can't see how the GC strata are explained by the model AND other processes.

Faith
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 Message 36 of 1304 (731294) 04-28-2014 8:00 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
I said I still need to think about the model and I will ponder it when I get to it.

They aren't merely "not exactly duplicated," they are completely jumbled with respect to the order of the model.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

edge
Member (Idle past 570 days)
Posts: 4696
Joined: 01-09-2002

 Message 37 of 1304 (731295) 04-28-2014 11:03 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
 They aren't merely "not exactly duplicated," they are completely jumbled with respect to the order of the model.

They are 'jumbled' because you insist on a one transgression scenario. This is a clue that your premise is wrong.

Faith
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 Message 38 of 1304 (731296) 04-28-2014 11:08 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
That's a good point. I'll think about it.

RAZD
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 Message 39 of 1304 (731297) 04-29-2014 7:35 AM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
Here's a thought for how to look at the GC with the model shown here

Take a piece of paper and make 5 colored columns

 Continental Land Sands Siliciclastic Muds Carbonate Sediments Coccolith Foram Ooze Continental Land Sands Siliciclastic Muds Carbonate Sediments Coccolith Foram Ooze Continental Land Sands Siliciclastic Muds Carbonate Sediments Coccolith Foram Ooze Continental Land Sands Siliciclastic Muds Carbonate Sediments Coccolith Foram Ooze Continental Land Sands Siliciclastic Muds Carbonate Sediments Coccolith Foram Ooze

Cut the paper into strips

 Continental Land Sands Siliciclastic Muds Carbonate Sediments Coccolith Foram Ooze

Take your list of Grand Canyon rocks from Message 27 and start at the bottom:

Tapeats ---Sandstone
Vishnu, Zoroaster, Great Unconformity etc. (base)

Put a strip over the sandstone aligned with the " sands " column

then the next level of stone:

Bright Angel ---Shale

Put a strip over the shale aligned with the " Siliciclastic Muds " column

then the next level of stone:

Muav ---limestone (shaly limestone)

Put a strip over the shaly limestone aligned with the " Carbonate Sediments " column

then the next level of stone:

Temple Butte ---limestone

Put a strip over the limestone aligned with the " Coccolith Foram Ooze " column

etc etc etc (I think you get the idea)

Of course there should be a strip aligned with the " Continental Lands " column where there is a discontinuity, but you don't acknowledge the ones that are there (and which have been pointed out to you) so you'll skip that strip.

When you have reached the top you will then have the pattern of sea rise and fall that matches up to the model.

Simple, yes?

Edited by RAZD, : finishing

Edited by RAZD, : changed "eroding lands" to "continental lands" per edge comment [msg=42]

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 269 days)
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 Message 40 of 1304 (731298) 04-29-2014 9:55 AM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
This is what I get (using your list) as a simple\simplistic application of the model to the Grand Canyon rocks:

`.......................... Kaibab/limestone ................................................. Toroweap/gypsum/shale ................................................. Coconino/sandstone .................................................... Hermit/shale ..................................................... Esplanade/sandstone ................................................. Wescogame/sandstone .................................................. Mankacha/limestone ................................................. Watahomigi/limestone ................................................. Redwall/limestone ................................................. Temple Butte/limestone .................................................. Muav/limestone .................................................... Bright Angel/Shale .................................................. Tapeats/Sandstone ..............................................Vishnu/Zoroaster/Unconformity ....................`

Now you might get a slightly different arrangement depending on how you classify some of the layer rocks (sandy limestone for instance), but you should get the general idea: when the sand is being deposited for the sandstone layers there is also mud, carbonate and ooze being deposited somewhere else at the same time.

This can, of course be tested.

Edited by RAZD, : info from edge [msg=42]

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JonF
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 Message 41 of 1304 (731299) 04-29-2014 10:13 AM

So, a transgression followed by a major regression followed by a transgression followed by layers that are now lost to erosion.

Not at all "all jumbled up", there's a clear pattern.

Edited by JonF, : Match RAZD's edit

edge
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 Message 42 of 1304 (731300) 04-29-2014 11:01 AM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
 Now you might get a slightly different arrangement depending on how you classify some of the layer rocks (sandy limestone for instance), but you should get the general idea: when the sand is being deposited for the sandstone layers there is also mud, carbonate and ooze being deposited somewhere else at the same time.This can, of course be tested.

One exception here is the fact that the Coconino is actually an eolian sandstone, deposited in the gray (erosional) part of the diagram.

So, the erosional zone might actually be called a 'continental' zone where you can get terrestrial deposits such as sand dunes, swamps, fluvial, etc. deposits, as well as erosion.

Of course the model still stands.

ETA: Oh, yes, the Hermit is probably also terrestrial.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.

RAZD
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 Message 43 of 1304 (731301) 04-29-2014 12:45 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
Thanks! I've modified it to show what you said.

There are also some erosional discontinuities that would be gray, but I've forgotten where they fit in, and it still doesn't change the overall picture.

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Faith
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 Message 44 of 1304 (731302) 04-29-2014 2:17 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
Thank you for laying that out, it's very helpful for visualizing what the model is all about. The lateral extensions are where the model is seen to be consistent, not the vertical stack.

I think you may have inadvertently included the Hermit Shale in your revised version of the Coconino Sandstone, however.

JonF
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 Message 45 of 1304 (731303) 04-29-2014 2:38 PM

Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
 I think you may have inadvertently included the Hermit Shale in your revised version of the Coconino Sandstone, however.

I think so too. The interesting thing is that, if the Hermit Shale were slid to the left, there would be an obvious discontinuity. We'd see deep water deposition "suddenly" (in geologic terms) change to aeolian deposition. So between the Hermit and Coconino would be an obvious place to look for evidence of "intermediate" layers that transitioned between deep and shallow water but are no longer there because of erosion. Or maybe evidence of a "sudden" uplift or something.

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